Program Building vs Winning Programs

[The Tall Gguy]

I for one am sick of people calling our fanbase "dumb". People are just sick and tired of the same old crap every year. Is Butch going to turn it around? Who knows. I hope so, but being called a dumb fanbase for wanting to compete and win? The name caller is the one sounding dumb. If our fans becomes like a South Carolina or Vanderbilt fanbase (satisfied with mediocrity) this will not be Tennessee anymore.

 

[Other_Guy]

My gosh can we finish his second friggjn sraaon yet.
You can't compare him with most of those teams because they weren't on te brink pf being in shambles.
The problem with people like you OP is that you think because UT HAS had a ton of success it doesn't matter what reality is almost any coach can win.
The reality is UT is one more coach away from complete relevence in cfb. They're already an afterthought to some.
Like a kid that had everything handed to him because of his.last name and then when he's 30 people respond with "The Who's?" and he actually has to go earn it.

 

[MedicT]

I for one am sick of people calling our fanbase "dumb". People are just sick and tired of the same old crap every year. Is Butch going to turn it around? Who knows. I hope so, but being called a dumb fanbase for wanting to compete and win? The name caller is the one sounding dumb. If our fans becomes like a South Carolina or Vanderbilt fanbase (satisfied with mediocrity) this will not be Tennessee anymore.

I think the "dumb" reference is directed more toward the refusal to realize what is required to rebuild a championship program. It is a multi year project and some "fans" are very critical of Jones when most see the program progressing at about the rate most expected given an objective evaluation of the starting point.

 

[DaddyChad]

I just think it's laughable that someone can look at this team and see that we've started so many true freshmen and see how talent poor our upper classes are and not think we're in the process of a rebuild. Most of the talent on this team are underclassmen.

 

[The Tall Gguy]

I expected 4-8 to 5-7 this year due to no QB or OLine. I also expected that we would beat the worst FLA team I have ever seen. This year is garbage, and once again we have to wait till next year. I understand the process and accept that, but I sure don't have to be happy about it or pump sunshine about it. Eventually, the excuses will be used up and someone will have to step up or answer why not.

 

[volfan411]

I just think it's laughable that someone can look at this team and see that we've started so many true freshmen and see how talent poor our upper classes are and not think we're in the process of a rebuild. Most of the talent on this team are underclassmen.

And to say that strength of schedule does not matter when we are playing so many young kids.

I guess the old saying holds true in that I can never see things your wat because I cannot shove my head that far up my a@@.

 

[YorkVol]

Strength of schedule only matters if you can show that you would have beaten lesser teams. Butch has lost to lesser teams.

Would Hugh Freeze or James Franklin have lost to ~.500 Florida team with a coach about to be fired in their 2nd years?

Their records show that they only lost to pretty good competition in their 2nd years.

Would they have lost to Alabama? Sure. But no one here seems to have a problem with losing to Alabama. In fact, most are celebrating that we just didn't get blown out. The problem is when you lose to a poor Florida team.

And once again, it bears repeating that they inherited significantly less talent. Butch Jones had 13 4-star recruited starters last year. James Franklin had 1 4-star rated starter in Year 3. And, since strength of schedule is considered the major factor here, let's remember that the teams Freeze and Franklin inherited went 3-9 & 2-10 against roughly the same strength of schedule they were playing in their second years. The team Butch inherited went 5-7 against a much tougher strength of schedule.

...But let's look at it another way...can you name me all the coaches in the past 2 decades who took over a losing program, failed to improve over their predecessor in wins in either of their first two years, and yet still went on to great success at that program?

Everyone agrees we should not have lost to Florida. I'm not sure that is on Butch as I think Spurrier or someone sacrificed a chicken or did some other voodoo. We needed a Pedro Serrano (remember Major League?) ef-you type moment to break that curse.

 

[Other_Guy]

Strength of schedule only matters if you can show that you would have beaten lesser teams. Butch has lost to lesser teams.

Would Hugh Freeze or James Franklin have lost to ~.500 Florida team with a coach about to be fired in their 2nd years?

Their records show that they only lost to pretty good competition in their 2nd years.

Would they have lost to Alabama? Sure. But no one here seems to have a problem with losing to Alabama. In fact, most are celebrating that we just didn't get blown out. The problem is when you lose to a poor Florida team.

And once again, it bears repeating that they inherited significantly less talent. Butch Jones had 13 4-star recruited starters last year. James Franklin had 1 4-star rated starter in Year 3. And, since strength of schedule is considered the major factor here, let's remember that the teams Freeze and Franklin inherited went 3-9 & 2-10 against roughly the same strength of schedule they were playing in their second years. The team Butch inherited went 5-7 against a much tougher strength of schedule.

...But let's look at it another way...can you name me all the coaches in the past 2 decades who took over a losing program, failed to improve over their predecessor in wins in either of their first two years, and yet still went on to great success at that program?

Not saying it is your point, but what would an argument proving Freeze or Frankllin is a better coach than Jones accomplish?
That's like saying since Mark Richt hasn't won a NCG at Georgia like Saban has constantly he shouldnt be.considered successful. I know I know Richt has proven himself
But comparing coaches witu different situations is kind of a waste of time.

 

[Other_Guy]

I expected 4-8 to 5-7 this year due to no QB or OLine. I also expected that we would beat the worst FLA team I have ever seen. This year is garbage, and once again we have to wait till next year. I understand the process and accept that, but I sure don't have to be happy about it or pump sunshine about it. Eventually, the excuses will be used up and someone will have to step up or answer why not.

Agree with you but I wouldnt say this season is "garbage".
Thata my team. That's my quarterback!

 

[Other_Guy]

I expected 4-8 to 5-7 this year due to no QB or OLine. I also expected that we would beat the worst FLA team I have ever seen. This year is garbage, and once again we have to wait till next year. I understand the process and accept that, but I sure don't have to be happy about it or pump sunshine about it. Eventually, the excuses will be used up and someone will have to step up or answer why not.

Agree with you but I wouldnt say this season is "garbage".
Thats my team. That's my quarterback!

 

[SaintLouisVol]

Tennessee isn't a program you build. It's already built. You just need to figure out how to have a winning program.

I don't want to hear a single phrase referring to our program needing to be re-built. Majority of SEC teams are not even in that category. Tennessee just needs to start winning to save these coaches jobs.

If Tennessee wants to feel like we are re-building than we need to be patient....but we really shouldn't.

Please stop comparing any coaches to a school that needed to be re-built. There's nothing to compare.

Compare CBJ to when

- Urban Meyers took the Florida job.
- Rich Rod took the Michigan job
- Urban Meyers took the Ohio St job
- Kiffin took the USC job
- Saban took the Bama job
- Les Miles took the LSU job
- Jimbo fisher took over the FL St. job
- Bo Pelini took the Nebraska job
- O'Brien took the Penn St. job
- Petrino took the Arkansas job

Butch Jones and Bret Bielema are probably the most comparable coaches.

Both in their second years.

Both are at an SEC Powerhouse.

So far, they both have extremely similar overall records in the SEC (7-13) and (8-12)

It will be interesting which coach ends up with the better record this year. They might be BOTH on the hot seat next year.

"Rebuild" - by definition - means to build something again. The traditions, facilities, support, etc. at Tennessee is built, but the talent on the roster certainly was not when CBJ arrived. He certainly has to rebuild the talent. That means re-establishing recruiting relationships, healing wounds caused by previous coaches, etc. He has to rebuild the expectations, work habits, commitment and many other intangibles that seem to have slipped away in the last few years but are essential to winning football.

That said, I agree that him taking the Tennessee is similar to many of the comparisons that you offer. The real debate lies in the state of the Tennessee program when CBJ took the job. Compared to those other names, how much work did and does he have to do, and how does that translate into an expectation of performance over time? I am not going to get into that debate as it is not one that is likely to be had with any civility and intellectual honesty on VN.

 

[LIFE TIME VOL]

I'm not comparing rosters of teams. I'm comparing what is considered re-building programs and what are not.

Tennessee is not a re-building program. If you really think we are, then take a look at ECU and let me know who is who.

If not a rebuilding program, rebuilding team.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Urban Meyers has a brother that is pretty popular this time of year.

Underrated post!

 

[Fijivol72]

Tennessee isn't a program you build. It's already built. You just need to figure out how to have a winning program.

I don't want to hear a single phrase referring to our program needing to be re-built. Majority of SEC teams are not even in that category. Tennessee just needs to start winning to save these coaches jobs.

If Tennessee wants to feel like we are re-building than we need to be patient....but we really shouldn't.

Please stop comparing any coaches to a school that needed to be re-built. There's nothing to compare.

Compare CBJ to when

- Urban Meyers took the Florida job.
- Rich Rod took the Michigan job
- Urban Meyers took the Ohio St job
- Kiffin took the USC job
- Saban took the Bama job
- Les Miles took the LSU job
- Jimbo fisher took over the FL St. job
- Bo Pelini took the Nebraska job
- O'Brien took the Penn St. job
- Petrino took the Arkansas job

Butch Jones and Bret Bielema are probably the most comparable coaches.

Both in their second years.

Both are at an SEC Powerhouse.

So far, they both have extremely similar overall records in the SEC (7-13) and (8-12)

It will be interesting which coach ends up with the better record this year. They might be BOTH on the hot seat next year.

Good grief doogie, I know you are a young pup still pooping yellow but the hogs have not won an sec game in two years. Before you get on here and ramble at least get your facts straight. Oh to be young and stupid again!

 

[mountainair]

I expected 4-8 to 5-7 this year due to no QB or OLine. I also expected that we would beat the worst FLA team I have ever seen. This year is garbage, and once again we have to wait till next year. I understand the process and accept that, but I sure don't have to be happy about it or pump sunshine about it. Eventually, the excuses will be used up and someone will have to step up or answer why not.

I think you're confusing Facts for excuses. :rock:

 

[MedicT]

I expected 4-8 to 5-7 this year due to no QB or OLine. I also expected that we would beat the worst FLA team I have ever seen. This year is garbage, and once again we have to wait till next year. I understand the process and accept that, but I sure don't have to be happy about it or pump sunshine about it. Eventually, the excuses will be used up and someone will have to step up or answer why not.

How do you go about differentiating between a reason and an excuse?

Edit: My apologies mountanair, I replied before I saw your post.

 

[chargervol]

I'm not comparing rosters of teams. I'm comparing what is considered re-building programs and what are not.

Tennessee is not a re-building program. If you really think we are, then take a look at ECU and let me know who is who.

They are rebuilding a depleted roster, not Tennessee.
Yes, we are historic, doesn't mean if Dooley had drafted me at qb, We should still win. As a matter of fact, I could guarantee losses.

On the bright side, My mobility would make Worley look like Cam Newton. Might even get him drafted.

 

[oregonvol]

Not saying it is your point, but what would an argument proving Freeze or Frankllin is a better coach than Jones accomplish?
That's like saying since Mark Richt hasn't won a NCG at Georgia like Saban has constantly he shouldnt be.considered successful. I know I know Richt has proven himself
But comparing coaches witu different situations is kind of a waste of time.

It's all about establishing a frame of reference by which to judge Butch Jones and by which to determine whether he will succeed or won't. If we could agree that Franklin and Freeze are better coaches, then we can proceed with determining whether UT should be happy with a coach who is not up to the same standard. It can also serve to disprove the excuse that many here cling to, that Butch inherited the toughest rebuild in all college football.

If we can look at successful rebuilds and see how they progressed from what was inherited to year 1 to year 2 and if we find that the thing they have in common is that every successful coach in the past 20 years who took over a losing program, improved the W/L record at some point in their first two years, then we can say that it's probably not going to work if our coach can't manage to make such improvement.

I just find fact-based analysis like this more worthwhile and more interesting than excuses, slogans, or insults.

 

[PACKERVOL]

"Rebuild" - by definition - means to build something again. The traditions, facilities, support, etc. at Tennessee is built, but the talent on the roster certainly was not when CBJ arrived. He certainly has to rebuild the talent. That means re-establishing recruiting relationships, healing wounds caused by previous coaches, etc. He has to rebuild the expectations, work habits, commitment and many other intangibles that seem to have slipped away in the last few years but are essential to winning football.

That said, I agree that him taking the Tennessee is similar to many of the comparisons that you offer. The real debate lies in the state of the Tennessee program when CBJ took the job. Compared to those other names, how much work did and does he have to do, and how does that translate into an expectation of performance over time? I am not going to get into that debate as it is not one that is likely to be had with any civility and intellectual honesty on VN.

Thank you!

 

[MedicT]

It's all about establishing a frame of reference by which to judge Butch Jones and by which to determine whether he will succeed or won't. If we could agree that Franklin and Freeze are better coaches, then we can proceed with determining whether UT should be happy with a coach who is not up to the same standard. It can also serve to disprove the excuse that many here cling to, that Butch inherited the toughest rebuild in all college football.

If we can look at successful rebuilds and see how they progressed from what was inherited to year 1 to year 2 and if we find that the thing they have in common is that every successful coach in the past 20 years who took over a losing program, improved the W/L record at some point in their first two years, then we can say that it's probably not going to work if our coach can't manage to make such improvement.

I just find fact-based analysis like this more worthwhile and more interesting than excuses, slogans, or insults.

It wouldn't be a problem if you were willing to look at information that did not support your agenda. That inherent bias tends to make your methods invalid.

 

[McDad]

It's all about establishing a frame of reference by which to judge Butch Jones and by which to determine whether he will succeed or won't. If we could agree that Franklin and Freeze are better coaches, then we can proceed with determining whether UT should be happy with a coach who is not up to the same standard. It can also serve to disprove the excuse that many here cling to, that Butch inherited the toughest rebuild in all college football.

If we can look at successful rebuilds and see how they progressed from what was inherited to year 1 to year 2 and if we find that the thing they have in common is that every successful coach in the past 20 years who took over a losing program, improved the W/L record at some point in their first two years, then we can say that it's probably not going to work if our coach can't manage to make such improvement.

I just find fact-based analysis like this more worthwhile and more interesting than excuses, slogans, or insults.

The only way to determine whether he succeeds or fails is time and his body of work here. I understand we want to see evidence now. But, it is all conjecture at this point.

Are there better coaches with higher wins compared to their talent predictions? Absolutely.

 

[MiramarVol]

Another "Comparing Coaches Who Have Taken Over At Power 5 Schools Success Thread". Ok, now, let's talk about how the other coaches have had success in their 2nd year, without the mention of how many top 10 teams Butch has faced. Then multiply that by the the amount of top 10 teams the other coaches have faced in 1st 5 years and how many Butch has faced in two, on top of rebuilding a depleted roster....opcorn:

 

[malinoisvol]

Rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding- 2016 REBUILT

 

[JC61]

I just think it's laughable that someone can look at this team and see that we've started so many true freshmen and see how talent poor our upper classes are and not think we're in the process of a rebuild. Most of the talent on this team are underclassmen.

exactly...take a look at ESPN impact freshmen each week - the VOLS have had multiple throughout the year...if you added Soph's to that it would paint a picture that the team is going to be very good in the not too distant future

 

[RockyTopFalconFan]

While the Tennessee fan base does a good job supporting our athletics, I feel we are our own worst enemy. We have to start supporting our coaches. Nobody seems to understand that successful programs require stability. Butch Jones leaving would be another huge setback. I think it is obvious we lack depth. If we were to fire Jones or he decided to leave, what do you think would happen to the recruiting class he has coming in?

Let's support Butch unless it become completely obvious he has taken us as far as he can. Don't compare him to Dooley. Dooley couldn't even recruit. We know Jones can recruit. We are better today than when he arrived and the future looks bright.

So, stop being so dramatic. We will win again.