Nick Saban says NIL made him ask, "Why are we doing this" Ted Cruz YouTube

[Sudden Impact]

But Congress is the one Who can pass a national wide laws

Which will be challenged in a court of law and we are back to square one, once again.

 

[GAVol]

Which will be challenged in a court of law and we are back to square one, once again.

That’s the part that anti-NIL folks people don’t always follow. NIL doesn’t exist because a law was passed. It exists because it is a right that the court restored. It’s going to be difficult to just pass a law to fix everything because Congress hates antitrust exemptions and the schools are very nervous about making athletes employees.

 

[SpookyAction]

Which will be challenged in a court of law and we are back to square one, once again.

There are ways to construct federal legislation to stand up outside judicial review.

Congress has the power to define the jurisdictions of federal courts beneath the Supreme Court (their duties and jurisdictions are defined in Article III, as well as the Marbury v. Madison decision in 1803).

Congress also has the power to make exceptions to and regulations of the appellate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. This court-limiting power is granted in the Exceptions Clause (Article III).

If congress crafts and passes legislation using these powers together, they can box out the Supreme Court and limit judicial reviews to state courts.

But there are limits.
The Supreme Court can rule those laws to be unconstitutional.

The last case I am familiar with is the Guantanamo case where legislation was passed that removed all federal courts' of jurisdiction to rule on appeals by Guantanamo prisoners, only military commissions had jurisdiction over the prisoners, and the law did not apply to any US citizens. That portion of the law was ruled to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court decision basically said neither Congress, lower federal and state courts, nor the President has the power to exempt anyone in a territory under the governance of the USA from Constitutional protections. The rest of the law was left intact.

 

[LouderVol]

There are ways to construct federal legislation to stand up outside judicial review.

Congress has the power to define the jurisdictions of federal courts beneath the Supreme Court (their duties and jurisdictions are defined in Article III, as well as the Marbury v. Madison decision in 1803).

Congress also has the power to make exceptions to and regulations of the appellate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. This court-limiting power is granted in the Exceptions Clause (Article III).

If congress crafts and passes legislation using these powers together, they can box out the Supreme Court and limit judicial reviews to state courts.

But there are limits.
The Supreme Court can rule those laws to be unconstitutional.

The last case I am familiar with is the Guantanamo case where legislation was passed that removed all federal courts' of jurisdiction to rule on appeals by Guantanamo prisoners, only military commissions had jurisdiction over the prisoners, and the law did not apply to any US citizens. That portion of the law was ruled to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court decision basically said neither Congress, lower federal and state courts, nor the President has the power to exempt anyone in a territory under the governance of the USA from Constitutional protections. The rest of the law was left intact.

we have seen two states already directly sue the NCAA over NIL. it wouldn't take much for this to become a dispute between two states, and then it is a Supreme Court issue regardless of any new law.

I am really not seeing how Congress is going to be able to craft a law that says lower federal courts exclude people who attend colleges. They aren't going to be able to specify football players or athletes. You get one player who crossed state lines to play college and its a federal issue.

 

[volbound1700]

You are proving my point. Your are of course correct that most of Auburn's wins against Alabama have been with lesser talent. They've also gone 4-12 against Alabama since 2008. That's because over the last 15 years, they've always had lesser talent. If you want to get real particular, I'd argue that Saban beat Tennessee in 2007 with lesser talent, beat UGA in 2008 with lesser talent, and beat UF in 2009 with lesser talent.

Of course there are one off games, or coaches with losing records (like Mike Leach in SEC play), or series where one team usually has more talent than the other (like the Iron Bowl) where the less talented team wins. My point isn't that the less talented team never wins. My point is that the great coaches don't typically win games with the lesser talented team because they hardly ever have the less talented team. That's the entire point.

I once compared it to playing someone (or a group) 15-20 times in Risk but always starting the game with 10 extra infantry or playing them in Monopoly and starting the game with Park Place and Boardwalk. That was the equivalent of Saban's advantage with the media slobbering all over him, the paying players to get top classes, etc.

 

[05_never_again]

I once compared it to playing someone (or a group) 15-20 times in Risk but always starting the game with 10 extra infantry or playing them in Monopoly and starting the game with Park Place and Boardwalk. That was the equivalent of Saban's advantage with the media slobbering all over him, the paying players to get top classes, etc.

But Saban wasn't the only coach paying guys. Come on now.

 

[volbound1700]

But Saban wasn't the only coach paying guys. Come on now.

I do believe that was probably true. I actually think most the SEC paid players, now to the scale and how well they were caught, who knows.

Saban had extra political advantages that helped him with the Media and NCAA.

 

[05_never_again]

I do believe that was probably true. I actually think most the SEC paid players, now to the scale and how well they were caught, who knows.

Saban had extra political advantages that helped him with the Media and NCAA.

The advantages Saban had with the media and NCAA were because he won so much. The media adored him because of that, and the NCAA looks the other way (no different than they do for other big programs) because of that. A huge component of his recruiting was he was thought to be the best talent developer in CFB. Guys with legitimate NFL aspirations wanted to play for him more than probably any other coach. The best evidence of that is the guys who left after he retired, particularly a guy like Caleb Downs who was already a bonafide star.

My feeling about this is that if Saban was Heupel's age, he probably adjusts and adapts to this just like he adapted to other changes in the sport he didn't like (hurry up offenses being the biggest). But he isn't at Heup's stage of life or career. He's 72, basically universally thought of as the greatest CFB coach of all time, has won everything you could possibly win, and has probably a 9-figure net worth. I'd retire too.

 

[m1al]

Who knows what's in a man's heart?

This guy knows.....

 

[GoodTimeVol]

This would be an awesome narrative if it was the slightest bit true. His last 4 classes were ranked 1, 2, 1 and 2 respectively. He had no drop off.

Oh I love this argument how has Bama done retaining players through transfer portal defections? Lol the players leaving Bama are getting a nice payday…that’s called knowing your market value as a player


You can recruit great every year but now you have to be able to retain your talent so your argument is invalid

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

Oh I love this argument how has Bama done retaining players through transfer portal defections? Lol the players leaving Bama are getting a nice payday…that’s called knowing your market value as a player


You can recruit great every year but now you have to be able to retain your talent so your argument is invalid

Swing and a miss. Alabama had the #1 most talented ROSTER in CFB in Saban's final season (counting portal movement). There is zero merit to the idea that Saban was slipping at all in talent acquisition or retention when he retired.

 

[GoodTimeVol]

Swing and a miss. Alabama had the #1 most talented ROSTER in CFB in Saban's final season (counting portal movement). There is zero merit to the idea that Saban was slipping at all in talent acquisition or retention when he retired.

View attachment 626980

That’s not at all what I was talking let me make it easy for you, how many transfers out did bama have this year? lol

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

That’s not at all what I was talking let me make it easy for you, how many transfers out did bama have this year? lol

Let me make this even easier for you: the significant roster attrition at Bama HAPPENED AFTER SABAN RETIRED.

By the way, no one has told me "your argument is invalid" in years, I thought that went out of style in 2006 or so. Points for the nostalgia of the mid-aughts internet. Lol.

 

[GoodTimeVol]

Let me make this even easier for you: THOSE HAPPENED AFTER SABAN RETIRED.

By the way, no one has told me "your argument is invalid" in years, I though that went out of style in 2006 or so. Lol.

View attachment 627004

Okay how bout 2022-2023 bama defections let’s go back a little farther lol

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

Okay how bout 2022-2023 bama defections let’s go back a little farther lol

That's what the 247 team talent composite tracks, Alabama had the #1 roster in CFB for 2023, counting all movement in and out from 2022 through the 2023 season. Can't do better than that. Maybe Saban didn't want to put the work in anymore, but he was still recruiting at and retaining talent at the highest possible level when he retired.

 

[BruisedOrange]

Do we send those same 18year olds and their underveloped prefrontal cortex's off to war?

Exactly my point -- Yes, after they have been trained for several months in an environment which gives them little if no opportunity to make any personal decisions, and only when they're proven to be programmed and disciplined to follow orders and procedures under the most stressful conditions.

 

[rjd970]

But Saban wasn't the only coach paying guys. Come on now.

True. But you have to look at the scope and scale of what Bama was doing compared to everyone else doing it. It was open and flagrant at Bama and everyone knew it, including recruits who knew they could get paid. Saban was unique in how he could get away with it.

 

[rjd970]

The advantages Saban had with the media and NCAA were because he won so much. The media adored him because of that, and the NCAA looks the other way (no different than they do for other big programs) because of that. A huge component of his recruiting was he was thought to be the best talent developer in CFB. Guys with legitimate NFL aspirations wanted to play for him more than probably any other coach. The best evidence of that is the guys who left after he retired, particularly a guy like Caleb Downs who was already a bonafide star.

My feeling about this is that if Saban was Heupel's age, he probably adjusts and adapts to this just like he adapted to other changes in the sport he didn't like (hurry up offenses being the biggest). But he isn't at Heup's stage of life or career. He's 72, basically universally thought of as the greatest CFB coach of all time, has won everything you could possibly win, and has probably a 9-figure net worth. I'd retire too.

Talent development and the NFL factory line was a huge part of it in the later Bama years. But the bigger part of it in the early Saban era at Bama was something else. That fast of a roster and success turnaround wasn’t primarily because he won a championship at LSU and failed in the NFL.

He played the system better than anyone and was a great talent developer, but let’s not pretend the Bama machine and Saban’s political and media cover early on weren’t the more important things that allowed that juggernaut to reach critical momentum.

I give Saban his due credit, but he cultivated a situation politically where he didn’t have to play by the same rules everyone else did. Now that those sweetheart rules are no longer an advantage he is packing up shop and leaving.

 

[05_never_again]

Talent development and the NFL factory line was a huge part of it in the later Bama years. But the bigger part of it in the early Saban era at Bama was something else. That fast of a roster and success turnaround wasn’t primarily because he won a championship at LSU and failed in the NFL.

He played the system better than anyone and was a great talent developer, but let’s not pretend the Bama machine and Saban’s political and media cover early on weren’t the more important things that allowed that juggernaut to reach critical momentum.

I give Saban his due credit, but he cultivated a situation politically where he didn’t have to play by the same rules everyone else did. Now that those sweetheart rules are no longer an advantage he is packing up shop and leaving.

How did Saban's "media cover" help him land a top recruiting class in 2008? At that point, Saban's reputation was much different than it was today. People respected him for having won a title at LSU, but his NFL stint didn't go well and he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way about how he left Miami. He didn't have the political and media cover then that he did in those days.

I don't think Alabama did anything any differently in terms of paying players than any other big football school.

 

[GAVol]

How did Saban's "media cover" help him land a top recruiting class in 2008? At that point, Saban's reputation was much different than it was today. People respected him for having won a title at LSU, but his NFL stint didn't go well and he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way about how he left Miami. He didn't have the political and media cover then that he did in those days.

I don't think Alabama did anything any differently in terms of paying players than any other big football school.

Saban was still seen as a major coup for Alabama and they are one of the few schools that could pull off hiring a national championship coach from the NFL after Dubose, Price, Francione, Shula and then Rich Rodriquez deciding he didn’t want to live in Tuscaloosa. Any other school would have been forced into a Butch Jones/Derek Dooley type hire.

 

[loservol]

Exactly my point -- Yes, after they have been trained for several months in an environment which gives them little if no opportunity to make any personal decisions, and only when they're proven to be programmed and disciplined to follow orders and procedures under the most stressful conditions.

If they are old enough to handle war and all the potential future ptsd that comes with it, then they are also old enough to handle money with proper financial management training.

 

[rjd970]

How did Saban's "media cover" help him land a top recruiting class in 2008? At that point, Saban's reputation was much different than it was today. People respected him for having won a title at LSU, but his NFL stint didn't go well and he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way about how he left Miami. He didn't have the political and media cover then that he did in those days.

I don't think Alabama did anything any differently in terms of paying players than any other big football school.

Tin foil hat or not, having Mark Emertt as the NCAA president at the time certainly didn’t hurt. In no world could I see Emertt throwing an investigation at Saban.

As for your last sentence, I 100% disagree. They were, and are, one of the worst. There is absolutely a difference with what Bama is doing vice all the other big schools except maybe UGA and OSU.

At the end of the day, everything Bama did to get ahead so quickly and maintain it is now above board and transfer rules keep the talent hoarding under check. I really believe The Nico recruiting was eye opening to Saban…under the table old rules and Nico is Bama or OSU bound all day. Now this kid is going to a rival school that just out coached and beat your talent hoarding not even 2 years ago. Maybe it is a conspiracy theory, but this latest investigation into UT is eerily reminiscent of the Ole Miss stuff after Freeze beat Saban two years in a row…the difference being here that UT legally told the NCAA to pound sand, we were done with this biased bull**** nonsense.

The writing is on the wall, Saban advantage has been neutralized and he took his ball and ran home. I honestly think he doesn’t believe he can maintain the standard he did at Bama with a level playing field.

 

[05_never_again]

Tin foil hat or not, having Mark Emertt as the NCAA president at the time certainly didn’t hurt. In no world could I see Emertt throwing an investigation at Saban.

As for your last sentence, I 100% disagree. They were, and are, one of the worst. There is absolutely a difference with what Bama is doing vice all the other big schools except maybe UGA and OSU.

At the end of the day, everything Bama did to get ahead so quickly and maintain it is now above board and transfer rules keep the talent hoarding under check. I really believe The Nico recruiting was eye opening to Saban…under the table old rules and Nico is Bama or OSU bound all day. Now this kid is going to a rival school that just out coached and beat your talent hoarding not even 2 years ago. Maybe it is a conspiracy theory, but this latest investigation into UT is eerily reminiscent of the Ole Miss stuff after Freeze beat Saban two years in a row…the difference being here that UT legally told the NCAA to pound sand, we were done with this biased bull**** nonsense.

The writing is on the wall, Saban advantage has been neutralized and he took his ball and ran home. I honestly think he doesn’t believe he can maintain the standard he did at Bama with a level playing field.

As others have mentioned, he had the most talented roster in CFB when he retired (per 247), and he signed the #2 recruiting class in the country for 2024. If his advantage was "neutralized," then it still seemed to be pretty damn strong, and we're 3 years into NIL at this point.

When Saban showed up at Alabama, he had already recruited well and won a national title at another SEC school. It wasn't like he only became a good coach once he was able to take advantage of Alabama's brand, money, ability to break the rules and get away with it, etc. He pulled the recruiting classes he did initially because he was a hell of a recruiter, and over time based purely on reputation.

The NCAA isn't going to seriously investigate Alabama no matter who the commish is. The same can be said for at least half a dozen other big football schools. Unless you have inside info you'd like to share, it seems highly unlikely to me that they were doing anything more egregious than what any other big football school does.

 

[butchna]

Saban has a psychology degree and owns vehicle dealerships valued over $700 million. He has always been able to SELL and CLOSE...deals or recruits. What got his 71 year old menses flowing is having to resell what he felt should have already been cashed in. He famously wrapped himself in the SEC rules allowing him to deny Brandon Kennedy's transfer to Tennessee. "Why are you mad at ME? I'm just following the rules!" That excuse got (justifiably) tossed and he's been on the grouchy side of portal freedom ever since. Using a lost season of eligibility was a card he used very effectively from the beginning to maintain. a five star/high four star bench throughout his dynasty. Being forced to fill in some defections with other programs success stories was no solace and losing out to other programs for second priority targets like Nico (I know the story that Nico was his primary want in that class, but he went all in with Arch and that narrative didn't get leaked until he lost out) due in part to a more aggressive NIL game, compounded MIZ TERRY'S costernation. To his apologists, no one is asserting that he couldn't be top notch in this new stage, but he had it his way for way too long and excuse those of us who don't BUY that his concern was for the future of college football.

 

[rjd970]

As others have mentioned, he had the most talented roster in CFB when he retired (per 247), and he signed the #2 recruiting class in the country for 2024. If his advantage was "neutralized," then it still seemed to be pretty damn strong, and we're 3 years into NIL at this point.

When Saban showed up at Alabama, he had already recruited well and won a national title at another SEC school. It wasn't like he only became a good coach once he was able to take advantage of Alabama's brand, money, ability to break the rules and get away with it, etc. He pulled the recruiting classes he did initially because he was a hell of a recruiter, and over time based purely on reputation.

The NCAA isn't going to seriously investigate Alabama no matter who the commish is. The same can be said for at least half a dozen other big football schools. Unless you have inside info you'd like to share, it seems highly unlikely to me that they were doing anything more egregious than what any other big football school does.

Less than 3 years after transfer and NIL he is calling it quits. Like I said, he sees the writing on the wall. I have no doubt it has been harder over that time span, and with the NCAA getting weaker and weaker as every year goes by, he knows his days are numbered. In a situation where talent is equalized (NFL) it is shown that he can’t get it done. Saban even acknowledged himself when he was hired…”you are getting a **** coach, but nobody will have a more talented team than me”.

As for hell of a recruiter, how do you explain almost every top recruiting coach in the Saban era at Bama is all of a sudden pedestrian at other stops? And for that matter, where was the run of #1 recruiting classes at Mich St…or even LSU matching what he did at Bama? He is a great/elite recruiter, not denying that, and a better than average coach…but the Bama machine and political top cover deserves more of the credit IMO. It’s amazing how average coaches look on an even playing field, and that is right around the corner. In some instances, Bama may even be at a disadvantage in the near future.

It has been posted here more times than I can count the stories, pics, instagram posts, etc of the Bama players flashing cars, cash, etc. there was an entire post on another site clearly detailing everything going on and how it worked. There was and is zero concern about consequences. We don’t need inside info, it’s all right there on the web.

I get it, Saban is a great college coach with what he can do at Bama. I just don’t think he could have done that anywhere else. You think it is all due to him being Saban, the Bama machine is no different than a half-dozen other schools. I just think that is incredibly naive.