Let's Clear Some Stuff Up- An Overview

[VolForLife83]

Ummm P2 and P3 are the same

 

[1986sugarvols]

P2

3. Kiffin: This was big time hire and a true commitment to spending money from the TN leadership. Kiffin was the no.1 target for TN, in his early 30's, considered an offensive genius, and had strong ties to great coaches. Top it off with his hof coach father coming and on paper it was a homerun hire. Kiffin brought what was considered THE best staff in the country and we paid for it, they were the highest paid assistant staff in the country. Now, Kiffin took less money in-order to do this so our total staff cost was only 4th in the SEC. However, the commitment to spending money was there because IF Kiffin had stayed and been successful at a high level then he personally would have gotten raises. So we have to give the leadership credit where credit is due, it was a calculated but strong move by them and a long-term financial commitment to spending big money, Unfortunately it didn't work out and diving into those reasons aren't the point of this post.

Heck Kiffy would be a cheap hire or maybe he could be butchs next offensive co

 

[SobeVol]

Thank you!
This is the most informative, logical, and frankly reassuring thread I've ever read in volnation

 

[JoAllan]

I understand what you are trying to say BUT we actually go after elite coaches but none want to come here so we then go after mediocre coaches........

Gruden, Cowher, Butch Davis, Lovie Smith, Gary Patterson, We offered and they all said NO!!!

I agree with you here.

Tennessee has hired some big names, and lately tried to hire big names.

Tennessee was in a dumpster fire 2008-2013. None of the "big names" wanted to come here and risk anything.....plus Tennessee knew the situation they were in and were not willing to put down record money.......for a coach to come into this "dumpster fire."

Now it is not 2008-13, Tennessee has talent, they have back ups, they have recruited well, they have been winning, they have been winning bowls, and Tennessee has been built......NOW is the time to get the right coach to take Tennessee to the next level.

 

[TNJOKER]

P5

Butch - Let's discuss a bit of this backstory real quick.

We went after Gundy,a big-time hire. We had a verbal commitment from Strong who was considered the no.1 coaching candidate on the market at the time. So the leadership tried to get the best coaches available and was turned down. So we landed with Butch who was a slightly above average coach. We wont get on the pro's and con's of Butch here, it will be discussed ad nauseam on here over the coming weeks.

So why did people turn us down this time? To the point, it was because we had a TERRIBLE roster. That's it, Strong obviously coveted the job enough to commit to the job before changing his mind.. Hiring Butch was a by-product of the bad circumstances TN found itself in due to the incompetent of hiring of Dooley. Plain and simple, the top coaching prospect in the country was all but coming and walked because of the terrible state of TN football at that point in time. Can we blame any coaches for this? They generally get 1 shot at the big-times, why would they want to take a flier on TN right then when the deck was stacked against them? That would be a bad career move, honestly would you leave a good position to go work for a bad company for a bump in pay when you're getting phone calls from other suitors as well? So we had to go get a guy who would take the job because it would be an opportunity he otherwise likely wouldn't get and sincerely hope he could pull it off, enter Butch Jones. This sequence can't be used to value what the TN job is worth in the bigger picture, especially not right now.

As a side note, it should be recognized that Butch is being judged by not achieving the goals his own success has created. He was charged with rebuilding the roster and making TN competitive again, we all knew going in that even if he couldn't win big if he could at least get us back go competitive then he would be considered a success. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. So please, let's not just kick the guy on the way out the door if that is what happens. He has done TN a huge service, yes paid well for it, but he took us off like support.

His mission has indeed met the initial criteria of our initial idea of success. UT actually has a stable heartbeat and is almost ready to get out of rehab and get back to kicking @ss..

Brick by brick has been accomplished.. we all knew from the get go he was not a "Big Time" coach in the SEC.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

P2

3. Kiffin: This was big time hire and a true commitment to spending money from the TN leadership. Kiffin was the no.1 target for TN, in his early 30's, considered an offensive genius, and had strong ties to great coaches. Top it off with his hof coach father coming and on paper it was a homerun hire. Kiffin brought what was considered THE best staff in the country and we paid for it, they were the highest paid assistant staff in the country. Now, Kiffin took less money in-order to do this so our total staff cost was only 4th in the SEC. However, the commitment to spending money was there because IF Kiffin had stayed and been successful at a high level then he personally would have gotten raises. So we have to give the leadership credit where credit is due, it was a calculated but strong move by them and a long-term financial commitment to spending big money, Unfortunately it didn't work out and diving into those reasons aren't the point of this post.

This right here invalidates your arguments. In 2008, we were fresh off a season where we won the East and almost won the SEC by beating the eventual NC LSU. Yes we had a terrible year in 2008, but we were still nationally relevant. Nobody can say otherwise. Kiffin shoukd have never been on our radar. Why? I will explain. Like I said we were still nationally relevant. So the decision was made to get rid of a HOF coach. We had the money, relevance and clout to hire a big time coach. But what did Hamilton do? He hired a guy who was a loser in the NFL and had zero HC experience. At that point in our program, we should not have been in a position to hire a guy with no college head coaching experience.

Please dont use the excuse that nobody wanted the job at Tennessee. If you do, please provide the proof that backs it up. Kiffins contract was a complete and utter joke.

 

[Rudy123]

The biggest issue to me was the handling after kiffin left. I don't think he was really a bad hire, and he definitely excited the fan base (long term there probably would've been recruiting issues and our players seemed to have off the field problems constantly). I think he would've done well here, though probably not elite

Issue comes when they hire dooley. If we would've just had an interim coach, and then found somebody worth while, we wouldn't have dug ourselves in this hole. We rushed/panicked/whatever, and it took its toll on the program

Interim coach Kippy Brown??????

 

[Rudy123]

This right here invalidates your arguments. In 2008, we were fresh off a season where we won the East and almost won the SEC by beating the eventual NC LSU. Yes we had a terrible year in 2008, but we were still nationally relevant. Nobody can say otherwise. Kiffin shoukd have never been on our radar. Why? I will explain. Like I said we were still nationally relevant. So the decision was made to get rid of a HOF coach. We had the money, relevance and clout to hire a big time coach. But what did Hamilton do? He hired a guy who was a loser in the NFL and had zero HC experience. At that point in our program, we should not have been in a position to hire a guy with no college head coaching experience.

Please dont use the excuse that nobody wanted the job at Tennessee. If you do, please provide the proof that backs it up. Kiffins contract was a complete and utter joke.

Why did Cowher, Lovie Smith, Muschamp, Gary Patterson, Charlie Strong, Chris Peterson, butch Davis not come here after we reached out to them??
If others were interested, then why did we end up with our tenth choice in 2010, in Dooley and our tenth choice in 2013 with bUTch????
The same thing happened when Pearl was released.. None of our top nine choices wanted the job, so we ended up with Martin. The night we got Martin, I remember hearing it on the radio and I said to my son "Who the hell is that?" ...........

 

[UtahVol]

The biggest issue to me was the handling after kiffin left. I don't think he was really a bad hire, and he definitely excited the fan base (long term there probably would've been recruiting issues and our players seemed to have off the field problems constantly). I think he would've done well here, though probably not elite

Issue comes when they hire dooley. If we would've just had an interim coach, and then found somebody worth while, we wouldn't have dug ourselves in this hole. We rushed/panicked/whatever, and it took its toll on the program

Actually, the Dooley search went on for quite a while and he was selected after all the main targets passed. Moreover, Kiffin left at the worst possible time, with national signing day around the corner.

 

[UtahVol]

P6

Where do we stand to hire a coach as of today?

IMO, and that of about everyone except our own fanbase it seems, we're in a very strong position and if we don't even ATTEMPT to make a strong move now then our leadership is telling the fans it wont ever do so again. If this happens then what is the point for fans to pour financial resources into the program? It's my strong opinion that this will be one of the most important decisions in deciding the future of our program. The wrong move here and you will lose fans to apathy, they will put less money into the program, and AD will risk losing a lot of fans from younger generations that have never gotten to experience great TN football.*

Why the TN job is attractive and we're in good position to make a strong move:

Money Hyams made a lot of incorrect statements about the money situation just to get clicks and posting "$25M" is definitely click bait, if he believes what he wrote then I'd hate to see his financial situation because he doesn't understand money. The total buy-out of Butch and staff will be around $10M. Shoop has no buy-out and everyone's buy-out is off-set by any jobs they may take. If we hire a sitting HC then him and his staff will have a buy-out (lets say $2-$5M). So total UPFRONT costs would be around $12-$15M. It doesn't matter what they make down the line, for one their cost is off-set by what we would have paid Butch for the same period, and nobody gets their salary paid upfront in a lump sum. The same is actually done for the buy-out, we count them as upfront costs here but in reality they are paid over incrementally over time.

Further, TN is not poor. Yes, reserves aren't where we want them. No.2 in the COUNTRY in revenues we obviously have one of the strongest support bases in the country. Revenues are tied to merchandise sales with Nike, winning = more sales. Big bowl games give bonuses ($2M for Sugar Bowl for example). We could do a full financial analysis to examine why winning big in football helps both the AD and academic side of the University but to sum it up, it has been proven at numerous schools, spending money on a top coach that wins big is a financial boon for the school. TN has gotten greedy because the fans have supported the University just as much but without the success. This business model can't last forever and we are starting to see those cracks. If TN doesn't commit financially then the fanbase will stop doing the same.

Weak east: as discussed previously, a good coach is smart enough to put himself in a good situation. Think long and hard, has the East ever been so ripe for domination? The SEC is the best conference with the most money, and the historically weak east provides a clear path for a great coach to dominate and reap all the rewards that will come from playing in SECCG's and premier bowls (money, recruiting, prestige, etc)

Talented roster: Strong balked because of our roster, that won't happen this time. Butch has done a good job of getting talent on campus and has a strong class lined-up. There will be attrition with a change both in the incoming class and on the current roster but a great coach should have no issues holding it together. With a projected 14-15 starters returning, we will have talent for a good coach to challenge for the east on day one.

-Recruiting: The life blood of any program. In-state talent gets stronger by the year. With moderate success Butch has proven TN, like it always has, can still recruit with the best in the country. Win big and TN can pull to 5 and 10 classes, been proven time and again.
*
Brand: Butch, again, has done a good job os re-establishing the brand of TN. It will never go away, we are one of the strongest, most recognizable brands in college football. That hasn't changed but due to increased recent success by Butch, the perception of TN football is that we are close to being good. Everyone sees we've had the opportunity to be the best team in the east the past 3 seasons, we're on the cusp and if the fans and media see that then a good coach does too. It's an opportunity.

A good coach with a lot of options will also look at a program that went 9-4 the last two years, is one play from being 4-0 this year, and has given up on the coach. You'd be smarter to work for Al Davis or George Steinbrenner.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Why did Cowher, Lovie Smith, Muschamp, Gary Patterson, Charlie Strong, Chris Peterson, butch Davis not come here after we reached out to them??
If others were interested, then why did we end up with our tenth choice in 2010, in Dooley and our tenth choice in 2013 with bUTch????
The same thing happened when Pearl was released.. None of our top nine choices wanted the job, so we ended up with Martin. The night we got Martin, I remember hearing it on the radio and I said to my son "Who the hell is that?" ...........

I get what you're saying but CBJ was our 3rd choice. Not 10th. That may say more about who we went after as opposed to who might have said no.

 

[barknoxbrawler]

Charlie Sheen should be hired. "Winning"

 

[GRN1926]

His mission has indeed met the initial criteria of our initial idea of success. UT actually has a stable heartbeat and is almost ready to get out of rehab and get back to kicking @ss..

Brick by brick has been accomplished.. we all knew from the get go he was not a "Big Time" coach in the SEC.

Expecting Butch to win sec or HC's would be unfair imo. I agree, he wasn't brought here to do that. Obviously we hoped he could and I feel we've given him ample opportunity to prove he s the kind of coach that can. I'm not asking for him to be fired, he s got more games but the proof is in the pudding

 

[MOOOOONEY]

This right here invalidates your arguments. In 2008, we were fresh off a season where we won the East and almost won the SEC by beating the eventual NC LSU. Yes we had a terrible year in 2008, but we were still nationally relevant. Nobody can say otherwise. Kiffin shoukd have never been on our radar. Why? I will explain. Like I said we were still nationally relevant. So the decision was made to get rid of a HOF coach. We had the money, relevance and clout to hire a big time coach. But what did Hamilton do? He hired a guy who was a loser in the NFL and had zero HC experience. At that point in our program, we should not have been in a position to hire a guy with no college head coaching experience.

Please dont use the excuse that nobody wanted the job at Tennessee. If you do, please provide the proof that backs it up. Kiffins contract was a complete and utter joke.

It was more about the staff that Kiffin would bring than him

 

[GRN1926]

This right here invalidates your arguments. In 2008, we were fresh off a season where we won the East and almost won the SEC by beating the eventual NC LSU. Yes we had a terrible year in 2008, but we were still nationally relevant. Nobody can say otherwise. Kiffin shoukd have never been on our radar. Why? I will explain. Like I said we were still nationally relevant. So the decision was made to get rid of a HOF coach. We had the money, relevance and clout to hire a big time coach. But what did Hamilton do? He hired a guy who was a loser in the NFL and had zero HC experience. At that point in our program, we should not have been in a position to hire a guy with no college head coaching experience.

Please dont use the excuse that nobody wanted the job at Tennessee. If you do, please provide the proof that backs it up. Kiffins contract was a complete and utter joke.

We're on the same page for the most part here. I agree, we could have gotten pretty much anyone we wanted. Obviously kiffin was a bad hire in retrospect but at the time it wasn't, on paper at least.

He was widely considered an offensive wizard, coached under Carroll for a dominate run at USC and was considered to be one of the next big coaches. His failure in the NFL is irrelevant imo, there are so many great college coaches that haven't made it there. Saban, spurrier, Harbough got fired, Pete Carroll for fired twice from NFL gigs before going back to USC, chip kelly,etc.

Kiffin was considered an excellent college coach. TN tried to hedge their bet by paying kiffin lower and surrounding him with s top notch experienced staff including his own father. It didn't work out and I wish we had gone s different direction but I still contend that at the time it was considered a big time hire with tremendous upside.

 

[GRN1926]

Interim coach Kippy Brown??????

Better than Dooley. Arkansas did it and went and got a big time hire in Bielema. He hasn't done as well as they had hoped but at least the admin tried. Hiring coaches is tough, we want to win and I think it's fair to just ask our admin to try. Hiring Derek Dooley was in no way an attempt to compete at the highest levels of college football

 

[GRN1926]

Actually, the Dooley search went on for quite a while and he was selected after all the main targets passed. Moreover, Kiffin left at the worst possible time, with national signing day around the corner.

Kiffin left January 11 and we hired Dooley January 16.

Like you said, it was terrible timing to hire a coach and dunn to dip so low. What's funny is the widely accepted rumor, because I have no reference, that sumlin was willing to come. Not sure how that could be explained

 

[GRN1926]

A good coach with a lot of options will also look at a program that went 9-4 the last two years, is one play from being 4-0 this year, and has given up on the coach. You'd be smarter to work for Al Davis or George Steinbrenner.

I haven't argued for firing the coach. The article outlined our past and current situation if we do make a move

 

[volcop1]

P4

4. Dooley- One word can describe this move: Incompetence. Kiffin bolted 2 weeks before signing day and TN leadership decided it was more important to salvage one recruiting class rather than focus on a positive direction for the future

should have given it to" Kippy"

 

[ALLVOL 4LIFE]

I haven't argued for firing the coach. The article outlined our past and current situation if we do make a move

I have read through this thread and it was a good read. Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but is this all opinion for discussion? Or do you have an inside track on things?

 

[GRN1926]

I have read through this thread and it was a good read. Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but is this all opinion for discussion? Or do you have an inside track on things?

100% discussion. This is my outsiders take. I haven't had "inside information in years and even then it wasn't great. Knew about the black jerseys on Halloween night the week of. Friends sister worked as admin for staff in Fulmer through dooley years but never got much but tidbits

 

[Skizer41]

This has been a really informative thread in my opinion. Sometimes you have to look back and see where you've been before you look forward and try to figure out where we should go.

OP what us your opinion? You think he stays or goes? No it's not a trick and I won't hammer on you. Just wondered how you see it playing out.

 

[VOLINVONORE]

To be clear I'm not calling for Jones' head in this post. Just addressing some, what I feel, are misunderstandings about TN's ability to hire a coach and what has happened with past hires.

To answer your question, yes. Chip Kelly, and I know it's hotly debated if he would be successful, but he would be considered by everyone in the country to be a homerun hire. Saban, Meyer, Harbough level type hire from a perception level. He's the only guy that I would consider to be labeled "homerun". There are other guys out there that I think would be labeled excellent hires.

He might be able to hit the ball a long way, but I view it as a foul ball. He has had problems at ND and if you can't in at ND, why would he be able to do better than CBJ at Tennessee?

 

[Skizer41]

He might be able to hit the ball a long way, but I view it as a foul ball. He has had problems at ND and if you can't in at ND, why would he be able to do better than CBJ at Tennessee?

Think you are misunderstood. "Kelly" is in reference to Chip Kelly as in the former Oregon coach and NFL 49ers and Eagles coach. Not Brian Kelly who is currently at Notre Dame.

 

[Sarms58]

I have read through this thread and it was a good read. Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but is this all opinion for discussion? Or do you have an inside track on things?

It mostly opinion...Strong turned down Tennessee and then a year later took the Texas job and they were ion at least as bad if not worse shape...

Strong knew he would have better offers than Tennessee...that's why he turned the Vols down.