Israel vs Palestinians

#20,851
#20,851
LouderVol said:
but not the Israelis.....

seems like the Israeli's are now responsible for those 2700 deaths on 10/7. they have been at war with Hamas for a long time. clearly they should have moved their own people out of the way.

thanks for clearing that up.
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So you’re saying Israel should have leveled the **** bags long ago? It would have prevented 10/07

Ok.
 
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#20,860
#20,860
NashVol11 said:
I don’t think he’s commenting on whether or not you support the funding, just that the funding coming from the U.S. is part of why it’s discussed so much here
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Then why not ask me about things I’ve said or argued.
I have no interest in defending or debating other peoples opinions and positions.
 
#20,863
#20,863
LouderVol said:
all those who have conveniently linked the Palestinians together with Hamas. all those excusing their deaths because they were in the way, were somewhere Israel thought they shouldn't be, for being somewhere Israel told them to be, were near an attack, might have at one time cheered for Hamas attacks, and depending on what the current hospital narrative is for daring to be injured and required medical attention at a location some Hamas members were also being treated. for being press, for being aide workers, for carrying supplies. for somehow not voting on something that happened before they were born.

Instead of just admitting that its war and civilians are going to die, there has been a constant litany of excuses for Israel trying to make every attack a "valid target" and not a civilian one. Even when attacks have been wrong from Israel from the first reporting, like the hit on the cooks, there have been plenty trying to justify it, instead of just owning up and saying Israel messed up on that one.
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So you don’t have an example. Thanks for confirming.
 
#20,865
#20,865
EasternVol said:
No, if there's no or minimal collateral damage they're fair game. Same rules as very dangerous criminals, which essentially is what they are.
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And they hide among the people and strike with little regard for the people they hide amongst. Israel has committed to eradicating Hamas. I blame Israel no more or less for the deaths of civilians than I do Hamas. Factor in that Hamas had the opportunity and means to call off the Israeli dogs and they chose not to. That swings the gauge of fault a little more in the direction of Hamas for me.

All that to say this, I find the killing of civilians horrible, and terribly unfortunate. Israel's hands are not clean..... Don't get me wrong, they deserve blame for the killing of Innocents. The Palestinians chose Hamas knowing what that meant........ Hamas miscalculated both in the response they would get from Israel and their benefactors false assurances of support. Once again their brothers who would use them as a fulcrum have abandoned them in their time of need. No one will take them in and it appears Israel has had enough. The chants of "from the river to the sea" will come to fruition...... Just not as they intended it.

What comes next? That's the question.
 
#20,866
#20,866
NashVol11 said:
Every pro-Palestine protest has a bunch of pro-Israel people trying to antagonize and start fights, then play the victim if someone so much as frowns at them. Haven't seen nearly as much of that in the opposite direction
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I'm sure every pro Israeli protest has the same Palestinian or pro Palestinian supporter doing the same. That's typically how protests go.
 
#20,867
#20,867
Orangeslice13 said:
I find it interesting that all these people care about little bitty Israel and the minimal amount of deaths and destruction compared to so many other places in the world.
I can’t help but wonder why that is.
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Those Jews over there in Israel tick multiple boxes.
- They are perceived as White
- They are perceived as Oppressor

You can have millions of Arabs/Muslims killing one another in the region.

It won’t matter. No one will care. Doesn’t resonate.
Have one of those White Jews inserted into the equation and it becomes a huge damn deal.

Similar dynamic plays out here in America.
Thousands of people killed every year - Not a peep. Unless it’s at the hands of a power group (White or Police).
 
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#20,868
#20,868
Vol8188 said:
Never said anyone said it was 0. Only that you said their number was equally as unreasonable as the hamas number. It’s not. 12/30 is possible. 0/30 or 30/30 are not realistic options.

It’s like dealing with confidence intervals. Idk the exact number, but I can tell you it’s not 0% it’s not 100%. So yes, 12/30 is reasonable and possible

You never answered the question…why is it so hard to know the number? Whose fault is that? You seem to dismiss the most important part here
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why is it hard to know the number of deaths from a war? I have never participated in war but my understanding is that it is very messy, very chaotic, and even in the best of times there is always some fudge factor when it comes to data collection.

in particular to this war:
1. lots of rubble with really high percentage of urban fighting. hard to count bodies you can't see.
2. explosives make it impossible to really tell how many people used to be there when all that is left is tiny pieces.
3. active fighting is going to make data collection impossible or at the least rushed.
4. counts could be missed just because the collectors don't know to look in certain areas.
5. millions have been displaced. its irresponsible to claim that anyone missing is dead.
6. prisoners/hostages, I doubt either side is sharing truthful information with each other on who has who prisoner.
7. double counting often happens too. you have to be careful that someone fatally wounded in one attack, but later dies in a hospital isn't counted as two deaths.
8. then you could have straight up lies.

not sure how this is a particularly important part of the discussion.
 
#20,869
#20,869
Vol8188 said:
lol “came to them”? Denying agency again. The war “was brought to them”….by their husbands. If you put your family at risk, you have responsibility for that. So does your spouse given she had to have known the risk in this scenario.

Why do you deny they have agency
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where did I deny it?

I just said this wasn't like you, an American, bringing your presumably American wife, to AFGHANISTAN. This is a Palestinian with his Palestinian wife in Palestine. completely separate issues.

in this case the wife is in the war regardless of the location of the husband in or out of the house. just like the Israelis are in this war, regardless of the location of their warriors. but again you have a one sided standard on this.
 
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#20,870
#20,870
Orangeslice13 said:
So you’re saying Israel should have leveled the **** bags long ago? It would have prevented 10/07

Ok.
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yeah. if they think they are at a point where they require military service from all Israelis of a certain age, require them to be armed most of the time, and require active countermeasures in order to live a daily life, I would say they are already operating like they are at war. and at a level of war the US, and most countries have never experienced.

I was really pointing out the flaw/hypocrisy in the double standard 8188 was holding. as usual you are getting huffy when you can ever twist something to imply that the Jews aren't perfect.
 
#20,871
#20,871
85SugarVol said:
Lol what?
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I have already pointed out that I think 33k isn't every death. so I think its a reasonable statement.

and his statement doesn't say that all of the deaths were innocents, just that he thinks there are 33k innocent deaths. he doesn't comment on the possibility of, nor number of dead Hamas in that statement.

if you wanted an example of people lumping Palestinians and Hamas together, here you go. you took a standalone statement on the number of innocent dead and just assume it precludes any dead Hamas because you see them as the same.
 
#20,872
#20,872
LouderVol said:
why is it hard to know the number of deaths from a war? I have never participated in war but my understanding is that it is very messy, very chaotic, and even in the best of times there is always some fudge factor when it comes to data collection.

in particular to this war:
1. lots of rubble with really high percentage of urban fighting. hard to count bodies you can't see.
2. explosives make it impossible to really tell how many people used to be there when all that is left is tiny pieces.
3. active fighting is going to make data collection impossible or at the least rushed.
4. counts could be missed just because the collectors don't know to look in certain areas.
5. millions have been displaced. its irresponsible to claim that anyone missing is dead.
6. prisoners/hostages, I doubt either side is sharing truthful information with each other on who has who prisoner.
7. double counting often happens too. you have to be careful that someone fatally wounded in one attack, but later dies in a hospital isn't counted as two deaths.
8. then you could have straight up lies.

not sure how this is a particularly important part of the discussion.
Click to expand...

You’re misunderstanding the question. Both sides seem to agree that it’s around 30k dead. That’s not the question.

The question is: why is it hard to know who is a civilian vs who is Hamas?
 
#20,873
#20,873
LouderVol said:
where did I deny it?

I just said this wasn't like you, an American, bringing your presumably American wife, to AFGHANISTAN. This is a Palestinian with his Palestinian wife in Palestine. completely separate issues.

in this case the wife is in the war regardless of the location of the husband in or out of the house. just like the Israelis are in this war, regardless of the location of their warriors. but again you have a one sided standard on this.
Click to expand...

Your entire argument seems to deny them agency and treat them as victims. If you know people are trying to murder you, they’ve openly declared their intent to destroy all Hamas members, and then you go home to your family every night…

Are you not putting your family in danger? By staying, is your wife not putting herself in danger?
 
#20,874
#20,874
Vol8188 said:
You’re misunderstanding the question. Both sides seem to agree that it’s around 30k dead. That’s not the question.

The question is: why is it hard to know who is a civilian vs who is Hamas?
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because both sides bring their own biases.

israel wants to have lower civilian deaths so they don't look bad, and conversely more Hamas deaths so they appear more efficient. So they are going to claim more deaths as Hamas than they actually know.
Hamas wants to have both sides. more civilian deaths just shows how bad Israel is, while also making themselves look better with fewer deaths. but also fewer civilian deaths would mean they are actually protecting their people. so its a mixed bag of possible biases from them.

Hamas has claimed that 6k of its "soldiers" have died. that is hardly the 0 you were throwing out there. and while it doesn't match the historical trend for 10x civilian deaths, it is much much closer to that than the 12k dead Hamasians (?) Israel claims.

we know both sides are lying, I just don't pretend that my biased side would somehow be better in that lying.
 
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