Eric Garner Grandy Jury Decision Today

#176
#176
Grand Vol said:
So an application of a choke hold that violated department policy was "reasonable" then?
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It could be, in the criminal context.

Let me ask you all to do one thing. Go back and look at the video and tell me how long he has him in the "choke hold." Watch it closely...
 
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#177
#177
Coug said:
Medical examiner says no. Even if it was it wouldn't change the fact that the cops caused it.
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Well... yeah that WOULD change that "fact". And he caused it by engaging in illegal activity. But let me ask you the same question that I posed earlier: if you don't feel this activity was bad enough to warrant his being arrested, what other laws should the cops turn their backs on?
 
#178
#178
lawgator1 said:
It could be, in the criminal context.

Let me ask you all to do one thing. Go back and look at the video and tell me how long he has him in the "choke hold." Watch it closely...
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He had him in it long enough to kill him. That's all that matters. Anyone else would be charged with manslaughter. This cop needs to be charged.
 
#180
#180
Coug said:
Ferguson needs to teach NY how to protest and riot because they're not doing it right. I wanted to see some buildings on fire in Times Square, Starbuck's ablaze would be very entertaining, maybe set the Christmas tree on fire but nooooo. New Yorkers disappoint as usual.
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:peace2: That pretty blue font would've been nicely used here.
 
#181
#181
lawgator1 said:
It could be, in the criminal context.

Let me ask you all to do one thing. Go back and look at the video and tell me how long he has him in the "choke hold." Watch it closely...
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It's still the principle LG; and you know it.

The very moment they took him into legal custody the NYPD became responsible for his well being. And if a man dies while in their legal custody, they are responsible for that and an investigation will be conducted. And if it's shown they (the NYPD) were either the cause of or exacerbated the condition, they again are responsible. And you can't tell me their actions weren't exacerbating the situation.

What he was doing was illegal, sure. And he rightfully was being detained for doing it. But there are levels of force which you and I both are familiar with that should be followed. And in this case, they were seriously over the line.
 
#187
#187
Grand Vol said:
It's still the principle LG; and you know it.

The very moment they took him into legal custody the NYPD became responsible for his well being. And if a man dies while in their legal custody, they are responsible for that and an investigation will be conducted. And if it's shown they (the NYPD) were either the cause of or exacerbated the condition, they again are responsible. And you can't tell me their actions weren't exacerbating the situation.

What he was doing was illegal, sure. And he rightfully was being detained for doing it. But there are levels of force which you and I both are familiar with that should be followed. And in this case, they were seriously over the line.
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I agree it was wrong. I agree it was against policy. I agree it should result in liability to the officer.

I think it is debatable whether it equates to criminal.
 
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#188
#188
lawgator1 said:
I agree it was wrong. I agree it was against policy. I agree it should result in liability to the officer.

I think it is debatable whether it equates to criminal.
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I hate to say it but I agree with u especially without knowing all the evidence presented.
 
#193
#193
One of the things that I truly believe must go through the minds of people on these grand juries is that, in both cases, Brown and Gardner at some point acted aggressively and that it was their actions that escalated the situation. Even if they think the cop at issue overreacted, if they criminally charge the cop, what signal does that send to all the other officers out there who might find themselves having to make a similar decision in a matter of seconds, or fractions of a second?
 
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#194
#194
lawgator1 said:
One of the things that I truly believe must go through the minds of people on these grand juries is that, in both cases, Brown and Gardner at some point acted aggressively and that it was their actions that escalated the situation. Even if they think the cop at issue overreacted, if they criminally charge the cop, what signal does that send to all the other officers out there who might find themselves having to make a similar decision in a matter of seconds, or fractions of a second?
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Who is this and what have you done to LG?
 
#196
#196
lawgator1 said:
One of the things that I truly believe must go through the minds of people on these grand juries is that, in both cases, Brown and Gardner at some point acted aggressively and that it was their actions that escalated the situation. Even if they think the cop at issue overreacted, if they criminally charge the cop, what signal does that send to all the other officers out there who might find themselves having to make a similar decision in a matter of seconds, or fractions of a second?
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I understand this just as much or more than you do. But I also knew if I was to use excessive force I would be criminally charged because I damn well should have known better.

We aren't talking about an officer that makes a split second decision with a kid and a toy gun that had the safety orange removed. We're talking about a conscience decision to escalate the use of force continuum to a level that led to a man's death. And continued application of force even when the suspect was on the ground. And ignoring the remaining less than lethal tools at their disposal. I can flat guarantee you the application of a Taser would have brought compliance to the subject. Was it used? And I'd really hope this as a question asked by the jury in that hearing. And I'd love to know what the justification was for not using it.
 
#197
#197
lawgator1 said:
One of the things that I truly believe must go through the minds of people on these grand juries is that, in both cases, Brown and Gardner at some point acted aggressively and that it was their actions that escalated the situation. Even if they think the cop at issue overreacted, if they criminally charge the cop, what signal does that send to all the other officers out there who might find themselves having to make a similar decision in a matter of seconds, or fractions of a second?
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Totally applicable question for the Brown case.

What is the "fractions of a second" threat scenario of an obese man standing there, unarmed, confronted by multiple officers?
 
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#198
#198
Grand Vol said:
I understand this just as much or more than you do. But I also knew if I was to use excessive force I would be criminally charged because I damn well should have known better.

We aren't talking about an officer that makes a split second decision with a kid and a toy gun that had the safety orange removed. We're talking about a conscience decision to escalate the use of force continuum to a level that led to a man's death. And continued application of force even when the suspect was on the ground. And ignoring the remaining less than lethal tools at their disposal. I can flat guarantee you the application of a Taser would have brought compliance to the subject. Was it used? And I'd really hope this as a question asked by the jury in that hearing. And I'd love to know what the justification was for not using it.
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The law is quite clear that alternatives to use of deadly force are not relevant to the reasonableness of deadly force. That is, if you are justified in firing your gun, then even if an argument could be made that you might have been able to fend off a threat with less lethal alternatives, that is not relevant.

In this case, its less clear. The choke hold lasts for, at most, two seconds. Gardner is then down on the ground and is actually still resisting. They get him down and the problem was that he was massive and face down, with his head tilted to the side. That's why he couldn't breather. Not because of the choke hold.

If they tasered him, what happens when his diseased heart gives out? Then the police are criticized for that. If they whallop him with asp batons and that's on video, out come the Rodney King comparisons.

It started with Gardner defying police verbally. Then raising his hands, then pulling away, and physically resisting throughout. Any pain compliance technique would have been blasted by the critics, whether it be by Gardner himself in a civil suit, or by supporters had he died some other way.

Again, I agree that it was excessive and against policy and should yield civil liability. I am however more reluctant than others to call it criminal.
 
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#200
#200
The bigger question at stake here that no one is talking about is the insane high tax on New York cigarettes. These taxes indirectly led to his death.
 
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