Drae Bowles

[jkleno]

Laws on this vary state to state. Personally, I think they are merely a way for police to create a situation where they are more likely to receive honest testimony. The intelligence community will use them in this way too. The relevant information would be the interview conducted when the polygraph was given, but there is no way to include that without making the jury aware of the polygraph results.

However, if a defendant does not want to take a polygraph, the prosecution will often make sure the jury knows that fact.

Rifleman, you have avoided my question and continue to belabor your points. You made the assertion that this new lawsuit was "SUSPECT" due to the timing? That is 100% speculation and just your bias.

 

[crusse10]

This is a complex and serious matter, so let me first say I am all for lawsuits, and believe they are often the only way people lower in the power structure can seek redress against powerful institutions. I also believe that it is true that crimes against women are being poorly handled by most of our public institutions at all stages from prevention to prosecution.

However, frivolous lawsuits only serve to undermine the system and call into question the motives of the very people who need the justice our courts are intended to provide.

The timing here, announcing this suit well before the criminal legal system has been able to adjudicate the matters at hand, seems suspect. I assume jury selection has not been made at this point in the two criminal trials? If not, these sort of "newsworthy" filings suggest a desire to get this story back into the minds of potential jurors and cloud their impartiality. At best, this is an over-eager and poorly-timed suit. At worst, this is the type of prosecutorial collusion that needs to be weeded from our judicial system.

The two players were dismissed from the University of Tennessee and the football program immediately for an incident that occurred off-campus and for which, constitutionally, they are still legally granted a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise.

I see little in that swift action which constitutes a "culture of indifference" that would comport with a Title IX violation. Further, I suspect such a claim would be nearly impossible to prove if the criminal trial found the two defendants "not guilty". Therefore, there is a vested interest in the timing of this that is fairly unsavory to say the least.

No they weren't. AJ graduated that December.

 

[crusse10]

He left and took care of it. He was going to feel pressure regardless. You live in a imaginary world. He was at ut, turning in his teammates, and you think he should have greeted with lemonade. Young men were involved and emotions were high. You're an idiot if you thought things were not going to be said.

If your friend came to you and told you that she was raped, do you think that you should be assaulted for helping her and taking her side?

 

[Giveem6]

This is a complex and serious matter, so let me first say I am all for lawsuits, and believe they are often the only way people lower in the power structure can seek redress against powerful institutions. I also believe that it is true that crimes against women are being poorly handled by most of our public institutions at all stages from prevention to prosecution.

However, frivolous lawsuits only serve to undermine the system and call into question the motives of the very people who need the justice our courts are intended to provide.

The timing here, announcing this suit well before the criminal legal system has been able to adjudicate the matters at hand, seems suspect. I assume jury selection has not been made at this point in the two criminal trials? If not, these sort of "newsworthy" filings suggest a desire to get this story back into the minds of potential jurors and cloud their impartiality. At best, this is an over-eager and poorly-timed suit. At worst, this is the type of prosecutorial collusion that needs to be weeded from our judicial system.

The two players were dismissed from the University of Tennessee and the football program immediately for an incident that occurred off-campus and for which, constitutionally, they are still legally granted a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise.

I see little in that swift action which constitutes a "culture of indifference" that would comport with a Title IX violation. Further, I suspect such a claim would be nearly impossible to prove if the criminal trial found the two defendants "not guilty". Therefore, there is a vested interest in the timing of this that is fairly unsavory to say the least.

Exactly. Spot on. Nice post rifleman.

 

[crusse10]

Most of this (except for the part about the assistant coaches being at the 2nd assault of Bowles) seems to be directed at the UT administration, not the football program. The football program isn't necessarily going out and sweeping things under the rug. The issue seems to be that the UT administration is not doing everything required by Title IX (I admittedly don't recall all of the things explained in Title IX as it's a very long-winded piece of rules) regarding sexual assault cases when they involve athletes.

 

[pismonque]

...aaaaand the AJ thread comes roaring back to life!


This ain't no Walking Dead s***, this is straightup 28 Days Later rage zombie.

 

[crusse10]

No they weren't. AJ graduated that December.

and moreover was photographed with the other athlete graduates that were put in tweets that were sent out on official Tennessee accounts

 

[joevol33]

and carps do stink

Dang autocorrect. Haha

 

[The Crimson Cried]

Drae Bowles, the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[smokey0625]

If your friend came to you and told you that she was raped, do you think that you should be assaulted for helping her and taking her side?

No, but if I'm on a popular football team then I should realize backlash will be a part of it. I dig your justification in a vacuum model though. If i helped a woman out because she had just been raped by OJ, then I'd be praised. If I helped a woman accuse Trump of rape, then I'd have a lot of people hate me. I have to know that. I should not live in a well im doing the right thing so it's going to be easy. That's naive and I will not let my children walk in blindly if they ever come to me with a horrible sich.

 

[crusse10]

I don't know if I'm surprised or not that more anger is being shown toward Bowles than Orta, who actually gave the program one hell of a black eye based on this case

 

[smokey0625]

I don't know if I'm surprised or not that more anger is being shown toward Bowles than Orta, who actually gave the program one hell of a black eye based on this case

No he didnt. He acted like a young man never been in that situation before.

Not right, but he acted like an immature kid. And he yelled at somebody. Youve done worse.

 

[Gandalf]

Most of this (except for the part about the assistant coaches being at the 2nd assault of Bowles) seems to be directed at the UT administration, not the football program. The football program isn't necessarily going out and sweeping things under the rug. The issue seems to be that the UT administration is not doing everything required by Title IX (I admittedly don't recall all of the things explained in Title IX as it's a very long-winded piece of rules) regarding sexual assault cases when they involve athletes.

That is because the smart lawyers know that suing based on a few kids wont get the university to settle for BIG money like threatening the ENTIRE PROGRAM like a Title IX accusation will. And that is what this is, from the lawyer's perspective - a money grab into the deepest pot by threatening the most devastating blow that requires the least actual evidence of wrongdoing. See the multiple schools who have already suffered from Title IX complaints that were scarce on facts and heavy on media campaigns. Title IX is the civil equivalent for universities as RICO is to criminal prosecutions.

Notice I dont say anything about the girls' motivations. I really have no idea if they are looking for justice or just a payoff - but I can tell you for SURE what their lawyer is looking for and counseling them to do. :thumbsup:

 

[1allvol]

Truth is that none of us on this "message board" really know what happened that night and for the days after, and we don't know enough details to judge those accused, or to form an opinion about how it was handled by UT, Coach Jones, or KPD. Sad fact is on a college campus, any college campus, you can find stories like this. Mix alcohol, drugs, immaturity, hormones and freedom and things will happen. I saw a story recently on ESPN (OTL) about a similar deal at Baylor University. We all know about FSU...but just like with politics, we see and hear what the media wants us to see and hear, and its rarely the whole story. I hope the truth comes out, whatever the truth is, and I hope those involved get their due punishment. If our leadership at UT, including football coaches, try to sweep things like this "under the rug" I hope they get sent packing too. I have a daughter, and although I love Tennessee Football, if something like this happened to her, I would be devastated and probably want to kill someone. If the truth is that those accused are innocent, their lives have been ruined, or at least altered permanently, also UT and our football team have been damaged by the allegations and I hope the accusers are punished accordingly. Unfortunately, we wont know the truth for a long time,we just have to wait and see.

 

[crusse10]

That is because the smart lawyers know that suing based on a few kids wont get the university to settle for BIG money like threatening the ENTIRE PROGRAM like a Title IX accusation will. And that is what this is, from the lawyer's perspective - a money grab into the deepest pot by threatening the most devastating blow that requires the least actual evidence of wrongdoing. See the multiple schools who have already suffered from Title IX complaints that were scarce on facts and heavy on media campaigns. Title IX is the civil equivalent for universities as RICO is to criminal prosecutions.

Notice I dont say anything about the girls' motivations. I really have no idea if they are looking for justice or just a payoff - but I can tell you for SURE what their lawyer is looking for and counseling them to do. :thumbsup:

idgaf what the motives are if it's not wrong

 

[dovervolz]

Good for you. Don't worry, I won't charge you for teaching you the meaning of "alleged" today. Time for you to get ready for school so you can catch your bus.

Yeah, the short one

 

[crusse10]

No he didnt. He acted like a young man never been in that situation before.

Not right, but he acted like an immature kid. And he yelled at somebody. Youve done worse.

I have never intimidated a person caught up in a rape investigation. Pretty positive I've not ever done worse than that.

Pretty damn unbelievable that you're defending Orta. Lucky for us (and Bowles), Orta didn't act like the people where he's from.

 

[Rifleman]

Rifleman, you have avoided my question and continue to belabor your points. You made the assertion that this new lawsuit was "SUSPECT" due to the timing? That is 100% speculation and just your bias.

This is what we know.

1) The lawsuit, as it is posited, relies heavily on the assumption that A.J. Johnson and Michael Williams are guilty of crimes they have yet to be convicted of.

2) The lawsuit seeks compensatory damages for emotional suffering experienced as part of this crime because, in part, of knowledge of intimidation of Drae Bowles which the lawsuit details by second-hand hearsay.

3) The second-hand hearsay directly contradicts statements made by Drae Bowles himself.

4) The lawsuit mis-characterizes Bowles' being apart from the team as a cover up by the coaching staff, and an attempt to protect Bowles from angry teammates, when Bowles himself testified that he was separated from the team for academic reasons.

5) If Johnson and Williams were found innocent of the crimes they are accused of, the lawsuit as it pertains to these events has no foundation whatsoever.

6) Clearly, there is a media component to this lawsuit. Lawyers seeking compensatory damages for their clients, always use the media to apply pressure in these cases. That is fair game.

7) However, I take issue with building the case around a presumption of guilt for Johnson and Williams, when they should constitutionally be presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

8) Making this the center-piece of the lawsuit is clearly intended to increase pressure to settle on UT with little regard to whether it biases the trial for Johnson and Williams.

9) In fact, if the trial was biased by an onslaught of media, it would only benefit the litigants in the civil suit.

10) Therefore, the timing here is clearly intentional, as the suit as written would have little basis for compensatory damages if Johnson and Williams are acquitted of these charges.

11) The fact that the incident with Bowles is leveraged in the media to suggest that Maggit and Orta committed a physical assault, when the assault was verbal threats at most, is only further evidence of the game that is being played here.

Feel free to call me biased if you want.

If you are certain nothing sleazy is going on here, then I will feel free to call you naive.

 

[crusse10]

This is what we know.

1) The lawsuit, as it is posited, relies heavily on the assumption that A.J. Johnson and Michael Williams are guilty of crimes they have yet to be convicted of.

2) The lawsuit seeks compensatory damages for emotional suffering experienced as part of this crime because, in part, of knowledge of intimidation of Drae Bowles which the lawsuit details by second-hand hearsay.

3) The second-hand hearsay directly contradicts statements made by Drae Bowles himself.

4) The lawsuit mis-characterizes Bowles' being apart from the team as a cover up by the coaching staff, and an attempt to protect Bowles from angry teammates, when Bowles himself testified that he was separated from the team for academic reasons.

5) If Johnson and Williams were found innocent of the crimes they are accused of, the lawsuit as it pertains to these events has no foundation whatsoever.

6) Clearly, there is a media component to this lawsuit. Lawyers seeking compensatory damages for their clients, always use the media to apply pressure in these cases. That is fair game.

7) However, I take issue with building the case around a presumption of guilt for Johnson and Williams, when they should constitutionally be presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

8) Making this the center-piece of the lawsuit is clearly intended to increase pressure to settle on UT with little regard to whether it biases the trial for Johnson and Williams.

9) In fact, if the trial was biased by an onslaught of media, it would only benefit the litigants in the civil suit.

10) Therefore, the timing here is clearly intentional, as the suit as written would have little basis for compensatory damages if Johnson and Williams are acquitted of these charges.

11) The fact that the incident with Bowles is leveraged in the media to suggest that Maggit and Orta committed a physical assault, when the assault was verbal only, is only further evidence of the game that is being played here.

Feel free to call me biased if you want.

I you are certain nothing sleazy is going on here, then I will feel free to call you naive.

Verbally assaulting Bowles is still witness tampering, isn't it?

 

[TheOrange&White]

Some interesting quotes from the Feb. 13, 2015 article linked to in today's story:

"Bowles and cornerback D’Andre Payne are former players who were named as witnesses to the grand jury. Both players transferred at the end of the season with Bowles going to Chattanooga and Payne going to Maryland."

"...Tennessee coach Butch Jones said that the two players’ roles in the case had nothing to do with their decisions to transfer.

“That had absolutely nothing to do with it,” Jones said. “It’s an ongoing legal case, but Drae Bowles is a great young man. We helped him find a place. That decision was made, oh gosh, early in the season. No, absolutely not.”

Bowles confirmed Jones’ statement that he had decided to transfer early in the season..."

“It was just playing time,” Bowles said. “I wanted to play more. It was nothing personal. Being there for three years and what not, I just wanted to play more and I had two years of eligibility left.

"Bowles missed several practices shortly after the alleged incident. At the time, Tennessee spokesman Jimmy Stanton said Bowles, who was just named to the 2014 fall SEC honor roll, was missing practice because of academic obligations. Bowles confirmed, saying that he had meetings with professors at the time that conflicted with practice. He said that because he had missed practice, he couldn’t dress for the Missouri game on Nov. 22."

While I know things aren't always as they seem and I'm not Bowles or Payne, it seems like committing perjury before a grand jury would be a pretty big risk.

 

[Rifleman]

Verbally assaulting Bowles is still witness tampering, isn't it?

Have Maggit or Orta been charged with witness tampering now? That is a serious accusation with no proof. Surely, even if you believe the conspiracy theory that Bowles' testimony contradicts this lawsuit because his testimony was coerced, that coercion must be proven, no?

Soon you'll be telling us all that Coach Jones ordered the code red on Private Santiago.

 

[paige_09]

I love how these people haven't even gone to trial yet and everyone's already taken sides. The "alleged victim" is just a sl*t looking for a quick payout. AJ & co. are ravaging rapists let loose in society. Either side of the coin at this point is wrong. Quit making assumptions based off he-said-she-said and just leave the judging to the judicial system.

 

[livefaith]

Geraldo Orta, had told Williams that the football team had “a hit” out on Drae Bowles.

In his interviews with police, UT football player Geraldo Orta stated that he felt Bowles had betrayed the team and that where he (Orta) came from, people got shot for doing what Bowles did.

I don't know how anyone can defend statements like this.

According to where your from I guess ... :ermm:

 

[JackHVFL]

Some interesting quotes from the Feb. 13, 2015 article linked to in today's story:

"Bowles and cornerback D’Andre Payne are former players who were named as witnesses to the grand jury. Both players transferred at the end of the season with Bowles going to Chattanooga and Payne going to Maryland."

"...Tennessee coach Butch Jones said that the two players’ roles in the case had nothing to do with their decisions to transfer.

“That had absolutely nothing to do with it,” Jones said. “It’s an ongoing legal case, but Drae Bowles is a great young man. We helped him find a place. That decision was made, oh gosh, early in the season. No, absolutely not.”

Bowles confirmed Jones’ statement that he had decided to transfer early in the season..."

“It was just playing time,” Bowles said. “I wanted to play more. It was nothing personal. Being there for three years and what not, I just wanted to play more and I had two years of eligibility left.

"Bowles missed several practices shortly after the alleged incident. At the time, Tennessee spokesman Jimmy Stanton said Bowles, who was just named to the 2014 fall SEC honor roll, was missing practice because of academic obligations. Bowles confirmed, saying that he had meetings with professors at the time that conflicted with practice. He said that because he had missed practice, he couldn’t dress for the Missouri game on Nov. 22."

While I know things aren't always as they seem and I'm not Bowles or Payne, it seems like committing perjury before a grand jury would be a pretty big risk.

I have no idea what to believe, and will be reading closely as things progress, but this I seriously doubt. I have never heard of players missing practices, then games, due to a meeting with a professor.

 

[vol445]

I hate saying this but my daughter was all set to go to UT this fall and now we are seriously considering other options. Im sure this goes on at every campus though.