Coach Pruitt comment

#51
#51
got a like, but in fairness, two things...

1. it isn't any ONE player involved in the attrition rate that was the problem. it was the sum of the parts.
2. i agree with your teaching and development arguments on Jones, but he was a terrible manager as well. the locker room issues (which led to some of the attrition mind you) were not good, and reflective of a sales pitch gone awry....and he completely mismanaged several of the hires/fires he made, most notably S&C program.

i do agree, butch's failure was revealed in year 3 and 4, but it did validate concerns brought up in years 1 and 2.
 
#53
#53
jakez4ut said:
got a like, but in fairness, two things...

1. it isn't any ONE player involved in the attrition rate that was the problem. it was the sum of the parts.
2. i agree with your teaching and development arguments on Jones, but he was a terrible manager as well. the locker room issues (which led to some of the attrition mind you) were not good, and reflective of a sales pitch gone awry....and he completely mismanaged several of the hires/fires he made, most notably S&C program.

i do agree, butch's failure was revealed in year 3 and 4, but it did validate concerns brought up in years 1 and 2.
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I lump managing in with the teaching and development. I never touted him as a master at anything when he first STARTED. I simply made allowances for growth and learning from mistakes. The truly great coaches all have failure on their resume...they just advance and use it. Saban had parts of his Michigan State tenure, Urban his last couple of seasons at Florida etc. Butch refused to see what didn’t work and had no concept of incorporating any different ideas. I still feel that DeBord wanted to install the offset I into the attack and that would have used both Hurd and Kamara effectively...he reneged and both DeBord and Hurd bailed. No way to mask his total failure but a lot of that was his own doing. You can’t “waste” talent that you didn’t land.
 
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#55
#55
OnlyGodForgives said:
"We want to play how we want to play." Definitely no coachspeak, sloganeering, or clichéd BS there.
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It is what it is. Pruitt is leaving no stone unturned.


I suspect Pruitt wants them to play 60 minutes of good football, take one game at a time, play with swagger as they focus on the fundamentals, and play like they are capable of playing this season too.
 
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#56
#56
butchna said:
I lump managing in with the teaching and development. I never touted him as a master at anything when he first STARTED. I simply made allowances for growth and learning from mistakes. The truly great coaches all have failure on their resume...they just advance and use it. Saban had parts of his Michigan State tenure, Urban his last couple of seasons at Florida etc. Butch refused to see what didn’t work and had no concept of incorporating any different ideas. I still feel that DeBord wanted to install the offset I into the attack and that would have used both Hurd and Kamara effectively...he reneged and both DeBord and Hurd bailed. No way to mask his total failure but a lot of that was his own doing. You can’t “waste” talent that you didn’t land.
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i think a lot of us did. self included. i mean, how do you not learn from those mistakes, especially after how 2015 played out. smh.

also agreed.

and finally, i agree, but is there any real doubt that he not only wasted some talent he did have (kamara), and his sales pitch going unrealized led to some of the departures we saw? hindsight being what it is, you look at some of the guys that transferred out, coaches that left etc.....

water under the bridge now. definitely looking forward at this point.

i think we're all pretty much on the same page on most all the how's/why's he failed at this point.

in the end, we were all victims of the same coaching malpractice.:)
 
#57
#57
butchna said:
You stated that if Butch didn’t win six games the first season, he should be fired.
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Not that I expect respect for the truth from you... but this is a false accusation. I said if he was the coach UT needed he should have been able to win 6 regular season games with that team. I said that less would be underperforming the talent on the roster. It was... and ultimately that proved to be a VERY consistent pattern with Jones. IOW's, he wasn't the coach UT needed... pretty much like I said.

As a total, Butch didn’t fail in the immediate beginning.
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Yeah. He really did. He was never a good game day coach and was never able to come close to the raw potential of any of his teams. He was what his actual record at Cincy said he was... a guy able to beat most bad teams but simply couldn't compete with good coaches.

As for USCe that year, that is an illustration of the difference between a GREAT coach and a bad one. Spurrier took a handful of star NFL caliber players, filled the gaps with role players, and won more games than the sum of his talent came close to justifying.

Not really expecting you to understand that... we have too much history for me to be that unreasonable. But those great teams at USCe was the genius of Spurrier. He should get his due.

His system was inflexible and the coaches he hired (and himself) were not good teachers.
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That's part of it.

Dooley started with decent talent and ran it into the ground.
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That's one of the more stupid things you've said... Dooley failed in a lot of ways. He lost the team and he gave up. He was stupid enough to hire Sunseri as the guy to move UT to a 3-4 scheme.
Worst of all he didn't put the effort into recruiting needed to win at UT.

But he inherited a roster no better and probably worse than the one Jones inherited. Jones the used car salesman briefly made it better whereas Dooley didn't.
But neither inherited a good situation.

I never have and will never believe that the ATTRITION that was your pet bisch led to his downfall.
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That's OK. I'm beyond expecting you to actually argue against my points rather than straw men.
Attrition was part of the problem. Whether it was because he signed and lost good players or because he mis-evaluated that many players really doesn't matter.
He spent scholarships on a higher than average number of guys who never contributed... both those who left and those who stayed.

Scheme, teaching and development was the core of the failure and that couldn’t be concluded until it revealed itself.
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:lolabove:

Some of us saw it for 4 years while you cried about us pointing it out. He underperformed the talent in EVERY year... It didn't take some of us 5 years to see that "revelation".

Edit: And ftr, Dooley was slated to be fired as the Cowboys WR’s coach. The news was leaked, then retracted and he suddenly landed the Mizzou OC gig. Reviews of his tenure here aren’t glowing.
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Edit: And ftr, I haven't said Dooley was a "great" coach much less that he succeeded at UT or shouldn't have been fired. I've said what I've said which is that he took over a very bad situation and failed. The difficulty of the situation exposed his weaknesses and flaws.

But also ftr... someone thought he could coach and hired him. Jones is an intern. The Peter Principle probably applies to both guys. They rose to the level of their incompetence.
 
#58
#58
benzod said:
I would say Butch was worse. Atleast Dools, I can laugh at. Butch made me want to punch him in the face.
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In the battle of the suckyist, at least butch could recruit and won 3 bowl games. Dooley never had a winning season and lost his only bowl game: 6-6, 5-7, 5-7. Dooley broke 28 game win streak vs Kentucky who had a WR playing QB with just a few days of preparation.

WWE SMACKDOWN: "The Shower Discipline Disciple" vs "5* Heart Champion of Life, Helmut Injury Jones'n guy!"
 
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#59
#59
jakez4ut said:
i think a lot of us did. self included. i mean, how do you not learn from those mistakes, especially after how 2015 played out. smh.

also agreed.

and finally, i agree, but is there any real doubt that he not only wasted some talent he did have (kamara), and his sales pitch going unrealized led to some of the departures we saw? hindsight being what it is, you look at some of the guys that transferred out, coaches that left etc.....

water under the bridge now. definitely looking forward at this point.

i think we're all pretty much on the same page on most all the how's/why's he failed at this point.

in the end, we were all victims of the same coaching malpractice.:)
Click to expand...

Stubbornness abounds in coaches...the great ones budge when it doesn’t work. So much wasted talent.
 
#60
#60
sjt18 said:
Not that I expect respect for the truth from you... but this is a false accusation. I said if he was the coach UT needed he should have been able to win 6 regular season games with that team. I said that less would be underperforming the talent on the roster. It was... and ultimately that proved to be a VERY consistent pattern with Jones. IOW's, he wasn't the coach UT needed... pretty much like I said.

Yeah. He really did. He was never a good game day coach and was never able to come close to the raw potential of any of his teams. He was what his actual record at Cincy said he was... a guy able to beat most bad teams but simply couldn't compete with good coaches.

As for USCe that year, that is an illustration of the difference between a GREAT coach and a bad one. Spurrier took a handful of star NFL caliber players, filled the gaps with role players, and won more games than the sum of his talent came close to justifying.

Not really expecting you to understand that... we have too much history for me to be that unreasonable. But those great teams at USCe was the genius of Spurrier. He should get his due.

That's part of it.

That's one of the more stupid things you've said... Dooley failed in a lot of ways. He lost the team and he gave up. He was stupid enough to hire Sunseri as the guy to move UT to a 3-4 scheme.
Worst of all he didn't put the effort into recruiting needed to win at UT.

But he inherited a roster no better and probably worse than the one Jones inherited. Jones the used car salesman briefly made it better whereas Dooley didn't.
But neither inherited a good situation.

That's OK. I'm beyond expecting you to actually argue against my points rather than straw men.
Attrition was part of the problem. Whether it was because he signed and lost good players or because he mis-evaluated that many players really doesn't matter.
He spent scholarships on a higher than average number of guys who never contributed... both those who left and those who stayed.

:lolabove:

Some of us saw it for 4 years while you cried about us pointing it out. He underperformed the talent in EVERY year... It didn't take some of us 5 years to see that "revelation".


Edit: And ftr, I haven't said Dooley was a "great" coach much less that he succeeded at UT or shouldn't have been fired. I've said what I've said which is that he took over a very bad situation and failed. The difficulty of the situation exposed his weaknesses and flaws.

But also ftr... someone thought he could coach and hired him. Jones is an intern. The Peter Principle probably applies to both guys. They rose to the level of their incompetence.
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I think your favorite tactic of taking your sledgehammer and SMASHING somebody’s post and then multi-quoting the bejesus our of it horribly disfigures the original. You smash and pick and choose and attribute points I didn’t make and superimpose others. One of us has blared that little things pre-doomed Butch to failure. The other didn’t skip ahead to the end of the book...they let it be written. Nothing was predetermined and despite your mad raving street prophet lamentations, no one that gave possibility to our HC learning from mistakes or adapting his coaching to his roster was UNFAIR to you. You didn’t predict he’d end up an intern at Bama...someone else wrote that. And FTR, I didn’t “cry” when you “pointed out” fatal flaws...I mocked your style because you’re a preening blustery professional victim who gets WAY too upset at anyone who doesn’t accept your prescience. Maybe I’m misreading your multi-quoted masterpiece, but it does seem you’ve acquiesced to the superiority of the 2013 Gamecocks roster. Big step for you since that bullet point disputed your assertion that Butch’s teams had never beat a superior foe. Course it was because “Spurrier sucked by then”. Same coach that coached them to a #4 ranking that season. :wink2:
 
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#61
#61
WoodsmanVol said:
Some folks have Butch on their mind.
So much so, he's there all the time.
Whatever course a discussion takes;
They grab their trusty forum rakes;
And stroke the embers of their Butch whines.
Until they got a leaping bonfire one more time.
It doesn't matter that the man is long gone;
They just can't leave that obvious fact alone.
And focus on the Pruitt era that's yet to unfold.
Along with the promise of adventures yet to be told.
Yeah, they got Butch permanently on the mind.
And he's there rent free all the gosh-darn time.

[Sung to the tune of I'm Checking Out as sung by Meryl Streep]

--WoodsmanVol--
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I'm Checking Out? Meryl Streep?
 
#62
#62
butchna said:
And FTR, I didn’t “cry” when you “pointed out” fatal flaws...I mocked your style because you’re a preening blustery professional victim who gets WAY too upset at anyone who doesn’t accept your prescience. :wink2:
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.
 
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#63
#63
Can we agree that both were bad for UT.

Dooley was a goofball.

Butch was a goofball.

Butch beat Fl and Ga and Spurier.

Dooley lost to all east teams just not all in the same season like Butch's last team.

Neither could beat a west team.

Butch lost games due to scheme and being too conservative.

Dooley lost due to defensive scheme change.

Not considering wins and losses they were both goofballs wanting to succeed with gimmicks.

I'm all for gimmicks when winning. Not so much with losing.
 
#66
#66
butchna said:
I think your favorite tactic of taking your sledgehammer and SMASHING somebody’s post and then multi-quoting the bejesus our of it horribly disfigures the original. You smash and pick and choose and attribute points I didn’t make and superimpose others. One of us has blared that little things pre-doomed Butch to failure. The other didn’t skip ahead to the end of the book...they let it be written. Nothing was predetermined and despite your mad raving street prophet lamentations, no one that gave possibility to our HC learning from mistakes or adapting his coaching to his roster was UNFAIR to you. You didn’t predict he’d end up an intern at Bama...someone else wrote that. And FTR, I didn’t “cry” when you “pointed out” fatal flaws...I mocked your style because you’re a preening blustery professional victim who gets WAY too upset at anyone who doesn’t accept your prescience. Maybe I’m misreading your multi-quoted masterpiece, but it does seem you’ve acquiesced to the superiority of the 2013 Gamecocks roster. Big step for you since that bullet point disputed your assertion that Butch’s teams had never beat a superior foe. Course it was because “Spurrier sucked by then”. Same coach that coached them to a #4 ranking that season. :wink2:
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Looks like a lawyer wannabe to me...and he is failing miserably.

Butch was a complete disaster at the end. But, despite the early bobbles, he was pretty much on schedule through year 3. Year 4, when he took a team with enough talent to make the playoff but still lost 4 games, is when the wheels started coming off.

One thing worth analyzing is why the last two coaches essentially quit on the job. Is it booster interference? Administration? Fans? It would be one thing if it was only one of them, but it has been two in a row.

I know, neither is even a decent coach, but worth looking at anyhow.
 
#68
#68
I feel like Burch Jones was the pharmaceutical rep of college football. Running out to the audience and offering a product with promised results without the trials to back it up. Then of course the never ending list of possible side effects. At least Dooley was idiot we know.

Pruitt... Well definitely wait and see but it's refreshing to see the plan so far.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530AZ using Tapatalk
 
#69
#69
butchna said:
Stubbornness abounds in coaches...the great ones budge when it doesn’t work. So much wasted talent.
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That's true and probably correct on many instances. I'd chalk some of it up to ignorance and or not knowing how to fix it.
 
#70
#70
The one area where Dooley recognized talent was WR, having been one himself at UVA. So WR coach would be his best coaching position.

Butch recognized talent and recruited well, he just didn't know how to use the talent he brought in. So Butch would be best as a recruiting coordinator.

Neither was prepared or qualified to be an SEC head coach, as Vol Nation found out the hard way.

I believe UT has found the right man in Pruitt, though time will tell. Phillip Fulmer knows what it takes to be a good coach, having been one himself and being in the presence of Pat Summitt for many years. Time will tell with him as well, as the Holly situation looms in front of him. The previous three ADs didn't exactly have stellar track records in coach hiring or public relations (Hamilton -- the hiring of Raleigh, Kiffin, Dooley, and the whole Pearl fiasco; Hart -- the hiring of Tyndall, Jones, the Title IX lawsuit, removal of the "Lady Vols" name, and the perceived disrespect toward Pat; Currie -- the whole bungled football coaching search).
 
#71
#71
butchna said:
I lump managing in with the teaching and development. I never touted him as a master at anything when he first STARTED. I simply made allowances for growth and learning from mistakes. The truly great coaches all have failure on their resume...they just advance and use it. Saban had parts of his Michigan State tenure, Urban his last couple of seasons at Florida etc. Butch refused to see what didn’t work and had no concept of how to incorporate any different ideas. I still feel that DeBord wanted to install the offset I into the attack and that would have used both Hurd and Kamara effectively...he reneged and both DeBord and Hurd bailed. No way to mask his total failure but a lot of that was his own doing. You can’t “waste” talent that you didn’t land.
Click to expand...

hyp
 
#72
#72
HuntlandVolinColo said:
In the battle of the suckyist, at least butch could recruit and won 3 bowl games. Dooley never had a winning season and lost his only bowl game: 6-6, 5-7, 5-7. Dooley broke 28 game win streak vs Kentucky who had a WR playing QB with just a few days of preparation.

WWE SMACKDOWN: "The Shower Discipline Disciple" vs "5* Heart Champion of Life, Helmut Injury Jones'n guy!"
Click to expand...

That KY loss isn't on Dooley. It sits squarely on the shoulders of Tyler Bray and the rest of the team. There was enough talent there to beat that KY team by high double digits. Dooley could have stayed home that day and we could have won. Bray and his boys didn't want to go to a "suck bowl game" and laid the **** down. If you didn't see that you are blind.
 
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