Bigger bust, Stokes or Hopson?

[MphsBlues]

Any ideas on what the reason(s) might be? He was so enthusiastic when he came in last year. He has the size to dominate underneath and I hate to say it but he looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane this year. We all know he has the ability to play better but something is definitely not right.

He will come around. Just a matter of time. The sooner, the better.

 

[zansdad]

Everyone knows that with the exception of FT% and 3pt%, Stokes is #1 or #2 on the team in every "positive" statistical category? Doesn't sound like a bust to me OR like a guy that is lazy.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Everyone knows that with the exception of FT% and 3pt%, Stokes is #1 or #2 on the team in every "positive" statistical category? Doesn't sound like a bust to me OR like a guy that is lazy.

He was definitely giving minimal effort last game. Hall is also up there statistically in certain categories, but nobodies confusing his effort with Mcbee.

 

[zansdad]

He was definitely giving minimal effort last game. Hall is also up there statistically in certain categories, but nobodies confusing his effort with Mcbee.

If you say so. He had 6 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 1steal and 2 blocked shots in 18 minutes. Had he played 36 minutes that projects to 12 points, 14 rebounds, 2assists, 2 steals, and 4 block shots. Not to shabby. Let's not confuse frustration with foul trouble and double teams for laziness.

In a side note, CCM basically gift wrapped stokes fouling out against WSU.Stokes had been on the bench for about 8 minutes when Martin put him back in the game. Plus Martin took out Yemi AND Hall. The 5 on the floor when he fouled out was Stokes, Golden, McRae, McBee and Josh. WSU went right at Stokes and on their 2nd OR (iirc) Stokes fouled the guy. Bad substitution IMO. No wonder Stokes looked frustrated leaving the court.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

If you say so. He had 6 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 1steal and 2 blocked shots in 18 minutes. Had he played 36 minutes that projects to 12 points, 14 rebounds, 2assists, 2 steals, and 4 block shots. Not to shabby. Let's not confuse frustration with foul trouble and double teams for laziness.

In a side note, CCM basically gift wrapped stokes fouling out against WSU.Stokes had been on the bench for about 8 minutes when Martin put him back in the game. Plus Martin took out Yemi AND Hall. The 5 on the floor when he fouled out was Stokes, Golden, McRae, McBee and Josh. WSU went right at Stokes and on their 2nd OR (iirc) Stokes fouled the guy. Bad substitution IMO. No wonder Stokes looked frustrated leaving the court.

His numbers for 18 minutes weren't bad sure...however if you rewatch it as I have multiple times stokes is continuously not boxing out. Hall had so many offensive rebounds simply by out hustling stokes and beating him to the spot. On defense stokes just seemed incredibly slow, so either he has the feet of a snail or just wasn't giving the effort.

I think it's no coincidence that when Yemi was on Hall he barely scared and wasnt pulling down offensive rebounds like he was against stokes.

We play good defense so there's going to be missed shots and lots of rebounds to be had...just because stokes had 7 doesn't mean he gave 110%, if he had he probably would've had 10-12 boards in his 18 minutes. I'm sorry but a guy his size and with his talent should be putting up about 18/12 right now, not 6/6 like he has over the last 3 games.

 

[zansdad]

He was definitely giving minimal effort last game. Hall is also up there statistically in certain categories, but nobodies confusing his effort with Mcbee.

Also the only 2 categories Hall is top 2 on the team are rebounds (2nd) and FTrate (1st).

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Also the only 2 categories Hall is top 2 on the team are rebounds (2nd) and FTrate (1st).

Ok and like I said nobody is thinking he's giving 100%, most say he is lazy, yet he's up there in rebounds. That just proves what I'm saying above, there's rebounds to be had, someone is gonna get them.

It wasn't just the rebounds either, like I said he allowed Hall multiple offensive rebounds, something maybe not seen in the stat sheets. And he was slow defensively with his footwork, so either he's just slow, or he wasn't giving 100%.

 

[zansdad]

His numbers for 18 minutes weren't bad sure...however if you rewatch it as I have multiple times stokes is continuously not boxing out. Hall had so many offensive rebounds simply by out hustling stokes and beating him to the spot. On defense stokes just seemed incredibly slow, so either he has the feet of a snail or just wasn't giving the effort.

I think it's no coincidence that when Yemi was on Hall he barely scared and wasnt pulling down offensive rebounds like he was against stokes.

Wow, for a guy that was so high on Stokes in the summer you sure have turned around.

Hall had 21 points. He scored on more than just Stokes.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Wow, for a guy that was so high on Stokes in the summer you sure have turned around.

Hall had 21 points. He scored on more than just Stokes.

Maybe that's why I'm so harsh on him, because I expect more than 5pts and 7rbd a game which is what he has averaged over the last 3 games. If those are the numbers you think he should be putting up then ok, but I expected more from him.

As far as hall, we made our move when stokes went out and Yemi/Hall were guarding Hall. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'm confident in saying more than 1/2 of halls points and offensive rebounds came against stokes.

 

[zansdad]

His numbers for 18 minutes weren't bad sure...however if you rewatch it as I have multiple times stokes is continuously not boxing out. Hall had so many offensive rebounds simply by out hustling stokes and beating him to the spot. On defense stokes just seemed incredibly slow, so either he has the feet of a snail or just wasn't giving the effort.

I think it's no coincidence that when Yemi was on Hall he barely scared and wasnt pulling down offensive rebounds like he was against stokes.

We play good defense so there's going to be missed shots and lots of rebounds to be had...just because stokes had 7 doesn't mean he gave 110%, if he had he probably would've had 10-12 boards in his 18 minutes. I'm sorry but a guy his size and with his talent should be putting up about 18/12 right now, not 6/6 like he has over the last 3 games.

Ok. I'm sure it has nothing to do with UT's woeful shooting from outside or that teams are packing it in against stokes.

He had 9 rebounds in both the Georgetown game and the UVA game. Plus he only took 8 shots combined in those 2 games. That's hardly his fault. If Either if those games had been played at anything but a snails pace he would have had double digit rebounds in both.

If you think he's lazy, fine. I can't change your mind. I just don't agree with you. let's just leave it at that.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Ok. I'm sure it has nothing to do with UT's woeful shooting from outside or that teams are packing it in against stokes.

He had 9 rebounds in both the Georgetown game and the UVA game. Plus he only took 8 shots combined in those 2 games. That's hardly his fault. If Either if those games had been played at anything but a snails pace he would have had double digit rebounds in both.

If you think he's lazy, fine. I can't change your mind. I just don't agree with you. let's just leave it at that.

There's a lot of bigs who are doubled and tripled and put up better numbers than he has, that's all my point.

This is a guy who many said was a first round draft pick, lottery type player after this year.

Those type of guys go and make plays, they beat double teams, that's all I'm saying. You think it was purely a coincidence that we played much better with Stokes off the floor last game?

I'm not saying he's lazy, or always gives minimal effort, the last game it was just at its peak and glaring. I'm hoping moving forward it gets fixed and he gets back on track, cause we need him.

 

[zansdad]

There's a lot of bigs who are doubled and tripled and put up better numbers than he has, that's all my point.

This is a guy who many said was a first round draft pick, lottery type player after this year.

Those type of guys go and make plays, they beat double teams, that's all I'm saying. You think it was purely a coincidence that we played much better with Stokes off the floor last game?

I'm not saying he's lazy, or always gives minimal effort, the last game it was just at its peak and glaring. I'm hoping moving forward it gets fixed and he gets back on track, cause we need him.

Sure. I disagree with you but I don't have the energy to argue it. So I will just let it go.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Sure. I disagree with you but I don't have the energy to argue it. So I will just let it go.

That's fine, and I'm not trying to sway you either, obviously you have your opinion. I just don't think it's a coincidence that we played better with Stokes off the floor last game, and that the offensive rebounds and interior domination by WSU also stopped when Stokes went out.

 

[zansdad]

That's fine, and I'm not trying to sway you either, obviously you have your opinion. I just don't think it's a coincidence that we played better with Stokes off the floor last game, and that the offensive rebounds and interior domination by WSU also stopped when Stokes went out.

And I don't think they played better with Stokes off the floor. I think they just played better as a team in general and Stokes happened to be in foul trouble so he didn't play. They were winning when Stokes went to the bench with 4 fouls.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

And I don't think they played better with Stokes off the floor. I think they just played better as a team in general and Stokes happened to be in foul trouble so he didn't play. They were winning when Stokes went to the bench with 4 fouls.

Were they? I don't recall, but I thought they were down. I know we were up when he was on the bench, and when he returned with his 4th we quickly lost the lead. He then goes to the bench after fouling out and Tennessee quickly took control.

 

[calban]

I think a lot of the disappointment comes from all the hype in the off season.We even had a thread about him averaging a double double.
Statswise, he is fine except for his FT shooting. (worst on team)
Leads in SHt%, 2nd in scoring, 1st Off and Def rebounding, 1st Blks and Stls.
Think his shooting and rbd stats will pick up a bit next 2 games.

 

[zansdad]

Were they? I don't recall, but I thought they were down. I know we were up when he was on the bench, and when he returned with his 4th we quickly lost the lead. He then goes to the bench after fouling out and Tennessee quickly took control.

They were winning by 2 when Stokes got his 4th foul. They were winning by 2 at the 4:37 mark when Stokes went back in the game. Stokes fouled Hall on an and-1 at the 3:55 mark for his 5th foul. The game was technically tied when Stokes left the game, but his foul did lead to the FT that Hall made for WSU to take the lead at 59-58. From there UT went on a 11-1 run to win the game.

However, that is not some sort of statement on Stokes contribution or lack thereof. Stokes' 4th foul was at the 13:12 mark, at which point he went to the bench with UT up by 2. He spent 8 1/2 minutes on the bench and when he returned at 4:37 they were still up by 2. That doesn't sound like a team that played better with Stokes out. Sounds like they held par with Stokes out.

Now the run at the end was nice, but it wasn't based on Stokes not being on the floor, it was just a nice run at the end of the game, all of it FTs, as WSU fell behind in the last 2 minutes of the game. The score was 61-59 at the 2:04 mark (only a 3 point swing since Stokes had left) and UT made 8 FTs, and zero FGs after that, as the Shockers went into press/foul mode. (Actually UT's last made FG came at the 5:56 mark, the 3pt from the wing that McRae hit--just a side note)

 

[zansdad]

I think a lot of the disappointment comes from all the hype in the off season.We even had a thread about him averaging a double double.
Statswise, he is fine except for his FT shooting. (worst on team)
Leads in SHt%, 2nd in scoring, 1st Off and Def rebounding, 1st Blks and Stls.
Think his shooting and rbd stats will pick up a bit next 2 games.

Disappointment that his numbers are not better is fine. But much of what is directed at Stokes is out of his control. Him only getting 8 combined shots in the Georgetown and Virginia games cannot be laid at his feet. Also, big guys get into foul trouble, it happens, and when it does their stats suffer. But this new belief that he is lazy or unconcerned, or somehow doesn't cheer loudly enough when he is on the bench just seems like a typical VolNation witch hunt.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I think a lot of the disappointment comes from all the hype in the off season.We even had a thread about him averaging a double double.
Statswise, he is fine except for his FT shooting. (worst on team)
Leads in SHt%, 2nd in scoring, 1st Off and Def rebounding, 1st Blks and Stls.
Think his shooting and rbd stats will pick up a bit next 2 games.

I admit my expectations were high, so maybe that's why I'm so critical. I just expected much more than 11/7 a game from him. And if I recall I was more conservative than most I said I saw him around 14/8 a game, and many were saying 18-24/10-15 a game,maybe I just really bought into the hype too much.

One thing is clear though, lottery type guys beat double teams and make plays, right now he's not.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

They were winning by 2 when Stokes got his 4th foul. They were winning by 2 at the 4:37 mark when Stokes went back in the game. Stokes fouled Hall on an and-1 at the 3:55 mark for his 5th foul. The game was technically tied when Stokes left the game, but his foul did lead to the FT that Hall made for WSU to take the lead at 59-58. From there UT went on a 11-1 run to win the game.

However, that is not some sort of statement on Stokes contribution or lack thereof. Stokes' 4th foul was at the 13:12 mark, at which point he went to the bench with UT up by 2. He spent 8 1/2 minutes on the bench and when he returned at 4:37 they were still up by 2. That doesn't sound like a team that played better with Stokes out. Sounds like they held par with Stokes out.

Now the run at the end was nice, but it wasn't based on Stokes not being on the floor, it was just a nice run at the end of the game, all of it FTs, as WSU fell behind in the last 2 minutes of the game. The score was 61-59 at the 2:04 mark (only a 3 point swing since Stokes had left) and UT made 8 FTs, and zero FGs after that, as the Shockers went into press/foul mode. (Actually UT's last made FG came at the 5:56 mark, the 3pt from the wing that McRae hit--just a side note)

Fair enough, and great points.

I'll be honest, maybe I just expected too much. He has great potential and so I probably hold him to a higher standard than others.

He's just so big and talented that I truly think he could be putting up 18/12 every night, I see a lot left on the floor from him.

 

[SCowlsVOL]

if Maymon was not hurt Stokes would be averaging a double double but now he is the primary focas for the defense cause there is no guards who can dribble and drive to the basket or that can shoot.

I agree with you totally. Between him not having maymon and the guards pathetic shooting so far this yr no team has to worry about the outside shooting. The defenses can then just double team or do whatever they want with him.

 

[calban]

Disappointment that his numbers are not better is fine. But much of what is directed at Stokes is out of his control. Him only getting 8 combined shots in the Georgetown and Virginia games cannot be laid at his feet. Also, big guys get into foul trouble, it happens, and when it does their stats suffer. But this new belief that he is lazy or unconcerned, or somehow doesn't cheer loudly enough when he is on the bench just seems like a typical VolNation witch hunt.

I agree with that and and a lot of his downtrodden appearance could be from his own frustrations.
Think he just needs a couple of confidence builders and those are coming very soon.
I remember Maymon coming out of Marquette had to shed the rumors that he wasn't a team player. He did pretty damn well proving people wrong.
Stokes will do the same.

 

[zansdad]

Fair enough, and great points.

I'll be honest, maybe I just expected too much. He has great potential and so I probably hold him to a higher standard than others.

He's just so big and talented that I truly think he could be putting up 18/12 every night, I see a lot left on the floor from him.

Fair enough. And I think we all expected a lot out of him after his breakout last year. But don't confuse being gifted athletically and a willingness to play hard with offensive talent. Stokes is still learning how to play with his back to the basket on the offensive end. He came to UT with only one real go-to move, his sweeping hook. That shot is not really going to cut it in D1, there is usually not going to be enough room in the paint for him to use it very often. Other than that, his baskets are mostly put backs or him facing up a guy and taking him strong to the rim. Now he is being asked to post up, with his back to the basket, and score over taller guys. He still has a tendency to hesitate when he gets the ball on the block. He seems to be thinking his way through instead of just playing.

Hopefully, inverting the offense like they did against WSU, gives him more chances at the high post and helps stop double teams when he does go to the low post, and he gets some confidence back.

 

[zansdad]

I agree with that and and a lot of his downtrodden appearance could be from his own frustrations.
Think he just needs a couple of confidence builders and those are coming very soon.
I remember Maymon coming out of Marquette had to shed the rumors that he wasn't a team player. He did pretty damn well proving people wrong.
Stokes will do the same.

I agree.

Also, remember how awesome JaJuan Smith was when Lofton was on the court and then how his game suffered when Lofton was hurt for that stretch during their Jr season. It ain't easy going from being Robin to being Batman. An awful lot got dumped on Stokes' plate real fast. I think he can handle it, but there is going to be an adjustment period.

 

[cncchris33]

I agree.

Also, remember how awesome JaJuan Smith was when Lofton was on the court and then how his game suffered when Lofton was hurt for that stretch during their Jr season. It ain't easy going from being Robin to being Batman. An awful lot got dumped on Stokes' plate real fast. I think he can handle it, but there is going to be an adjustment period.

This is probably the best point in the whole debate.