40% Millennials Okay Limiting Free Speech

#26
#26
Going off my previous post, let's also be honest with ourselves about another thing: this isn't really anything new. It's just a current manifestation of the old.

What I mean is this, as just one example: how many people would have been against educators' free speech to simply consult with their students in an open and impartial way about things like the Civil Rights Movement in the past? And I'm not talking about those educators who would have sought to dictate how their students should think about the movement and black rights; I'm talking about those who would simply have sought to also have their students acknowledge the validity of black concerns as well.

Obviously, my two examples (counting the Crazy Campers above) exist in the fields of education, which are not necessarily public protests (albeit public nonetheless). But how many Americans do you think would have also supported the banning of the First Amendment when used in favor of Civil Rights rallies at the time? Probably akin to these figures.

I just think it's more of the same from an element of our society that has never been for the First Amendment but only for what suits them. The only difference in this latest manifestation is that it has taken a decisively more "progressive" tone, while those social conservatives wishing to bar the First Amendment have become weaker and fewer in numbers.

That's pretty much the only difference I see. Should we be alarmed by it? Absolutely, and I think we need to have better means of educating people about what a free republic really looks like. But I don't think this is anything new, and I don't think it's necessarily anything that should cause us undue alarm.
 
#27
#27
volprof said:
Going off my previous post, let's also be honest with ourselves about another thing: this isn't really anything new. It's just a current manifestation of the old.

What I mean is this, as just one example: how many people would have been against educators' free speech to simply consult with their students in an open and impartial way about things like the Civil Rights Movement in the past? And I'm not talking about those educators who would have sought to dictate how their students should think about the movement and black rights; I'm talking about those who would simply have sought to also have their students acknowledge the validity of black concerns as well.

Obviously, my two examples exist in the fields of education, which are not necessarily public protests (albeit public nonetheless). But how many Americans do you think would have also supported the banning of the First Amendment when used in favor of Civil Rights rallies at the time? Probably akin to these figures.

I just think it's more of the same from an element of our society that has never been for the First Amendment but only for what suits them. The only difference in this latest manifestation is that it has taken a decisively more "progressive" tone, while those social conservatives wishing to bar the First Amendment have become weaker and fewer in numbers.

That's pretty much the only difference I see. Should we be alarmed by it? Absolutely, and I think we need to have better means of educating people about what a free republic really looks like. But I don't think this is anything new, and I don't think it's necessarily anything that should cause us undue alarm.
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I don't know the historic numbers but 40% is pretty damn high.

Although as the article points out as a country we value free speech more than most of those countries we're told to aspire to...
 
#28
#28
I'm not sure what's more concerning: this or the fact that 30% of Republicans in Iowa recently said that Islam should be illegal in the US. Neither side has a monopoly on bastardizing the Constitution.

I still say the free speech thing concerns me more because I can actually see that happening with the "safe space" generation looking to emulate their heroes in Europe.
 
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#30
#30
volinbham said:
I don't know the historic numbers but 40% is pretty damn high.

Although as the article points out as a country we value free speech more than most of those countries we're told to aspire to...
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I don't know what the figures would have been from the general populace, as this poll appears to be, but I don't think it's a stretch at all to assume that around 40% of whites would have supported actions to curtail black First Amendment or voting rights during the 1950s-70s. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the number was even higher.

Sounds like another iteration of the classic "Well, back in the good ole' days..." narrative that romanticizes the past, while ignoring all of its problems and finding only fault with the current generation. I'm not necessarily referring to you or your concerns here, because I think they're legitimate ones; I'm simply referring to those you may see these statistics, make sweeping generalizations about "today's society" and assume that somehow things were any different in the past, kind of like those who watch a couple news reports about some murders on the evening news and assume that we're a more violent, evil society when violent crime rates have in fact been going down for years.
 
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#31
#31
UTCVol said:
I'm not sure what's more concerning: this or the fact that 30% of Republicans in Iowa recently said that Islam should be illegal in the US. Neither side has a monopoly on bastardizing the Constitution.

I still say the free speech thing concerns me more because I can actually see that happening with the "safe space" generation looking to emulate their heroes in Europe.
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That 30% number doesn't surprise me. It may be higher than that in the southeast.

If one religion can be made illegal, any religion can be made illegal. That is something many Christians have trouble understanding.
 
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#32
#32
UTCVol said:
I'm not sure what's more concerning: this or the fact that 30% of Republicans in Iowa recently said that Islam should be illegal in the US. Neither side has a monopoly on bastardizing the Constitution.

I still say the free speech thing concerns me more because I can actually see that happening with the "safe space" generation looking to emulate their heroes in Europe.
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Good post. I forgot about the Islam issue when citing the Crazy Campers on homosexuality earlier.

I bet there are quite a few posters on this board who will rant about liberal Millennials being anti-American in this thread today, who, if they're being honest with themselves, would support banning Islam from the US (or at least severely curtailing Islam and Muslim behavior in this country).

Just the same ole', same ole'. Same as it ever was; just different.

As for your concerns with the Millennial outrage brigades, I share your fear. They're dangerous, and they scare me. Luckily, my students, even here in California (which is not as liberal as people think, by the way), have always taken a very sensible approach to social dialogue and inquiry in my classrooms. I think that, along with the silent majority and the inevitable backlash that out of control safe space-ism will produce (and may have already), the center will eventually be relocated once again.
 
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#34
#34
I'm considering a "Free Speech Zone" sign for my office but I know that several SJW's in my building will ask about it, twist my intention and I'm off to the Diversity Office.
 
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#35
#35
volinbham said:
I'm considering a "Free Speech Zone" sign for my office but I know that several SJW's in my building will ask about it, twist my intention and I'm off to the Diversity Office.
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The misguided liberalism of many college faculty and students has pushed me further away. I don't really associate myself with them, and I don't really even consider myself a "liberal" anymore because of them. I think of myself as much more a moderate nowadays, fiscally and socially, although, in reality, much of my social thinking is still fairly liberal. I just don't like being associated with certain knuckleheads who have turned liberalism into some sort of bizarre death cult.
 
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#36
#36
volprof said:
The misguided liberalism of many college faculty and students has pushed me further away. I don't really associate myself with them, and I don't really even consider myself a "liberal" anymore because of them. I think of myself as much more a moderate nowadays, fiscally and socially, although, in reality, much of my social thinking is still fairly liberal. I just don't like being associated with certain knuckleheads who have turned liberalism into some sort of bizarre death cult.
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Same with me for social cons.
 
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#37
#37
volinbham said:
My complaint here is that there is no arbiter of offensive and we see many cases where the bar is very low.

So yes there are consequences to speech but we certainly have gotten the consequences way out of whack with the perceived offense.

It is a tactic that silences debate and accordingly flies in the face of the ideal of the First Amendment.
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How is the word offensive to be defined? I read the poll and I read it to mean offensive in the n-bomb sense.
 
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#38
#38
volprof said:
Good post. I forgot about the Islam issue when citing the Crazy Campers on homosexuality earlier.

I bet there are quite a few posters on this board who will rant about liberal Millennials being anti-American in this thread today, who, if they're being honest with themselves, would support banning Islam from the US (or at least severely curtailing Islam and Muslim behavior in this country).

Just the same ole', same ole'. Same as it ever was; just different.

As for your concerns with the Millennial outrage brigades, I share your fear. They're dangerous, and they scare me. Luckily, my students, even here in California (which is not as liberal as people think, by the way), have always taken a very sensible approach to social dialogue and inquiry in my classrooms. I think that, along with the silent majority and the inevitable backlash that out of control safe space-ism will produce (and may have already), the center will eventually be relocated once again.
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I don't by any means think that these represent the majority of college students - just a very, very loud minority who have gone way overboard in their rhetoric and actions. It seems like most students at these universities are ashamed rather than supportive. However, it only takes a few to make a tremendous impact. Luckily, I think you're right that America is more resistant to this than most countries due to the fact that a greater proportion of people aren't afraid to speak it against it.
 
#40
#40
UTCVol said:
I don't by any means think that these represent the majority of college students - just a very, very loud minority who have gone way overboard in their rhetoric and actions. It seems like most students at these universities are ashamed rather than supportive. However, it only takes a few to make a tremendous impact. Luckily, I think you're right that America is more resistant to this than most countries due to the fact that a greater proportion of people aren't afraid to speak it against it.
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I found the concluding statements of the OP article to be particularly interesting:

In contrast with American Millennials, those ages 18 to 34 in Germany and Spain are more likely to say people should be able to say things offensive to minorities compared with those ages 35 and older.
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The willingness of older Germans and Spaniards to curtail free speech offensive to minorities is most likely the result of being raised in a society so immediately scarred by the violent excesses of Fascism. Now that the younger generations are so distanced from these scars, they're coming back to the center. I expect the same in the US, a country wherein Gen Xers and Millennials have been born and raised in the immediate aftermath of the Civil Rights and culture wars crucibles. Given another generation or two, I expect young people to start moderating again, provided another major violent social upheaval does not occur domestically.
 
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#41
#41
This is the difference between being raised in a "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" environment and a "words hurt" environment.


Millennials are the worst.
 
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#42
#42
FLVOL_79 said:
This is the difference between being raised in a "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" environment and a "words hurt" environment.


Millennials are the worst.
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Millennials may be soft whiners, I'll grant you that. But they are also far more critical (for good or bad) than previous generations, holding authorities to far more accountability. Like I said, this isn't necessarily always a good thing, but if something is broke, they're far more likely to call you out on it and demand change than previous generations who were either too ignorant or too complaisant to do anything about perceived wrongs. (This does not just include "social justice"; it also includes dated business, educational, and tech models as well.) That being said, while Millennials are good at keeping authorities in check (that is, in giving criticism), they're also very bad at receiving criticism.

So, in essence, Millennials are just like any other generation: they have their good and their bad.
 
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#43
#43
volprof said:
Millennials may be soft whiners, I'll grant you that. But they are also far more critical (for good or bad) than previous generations, holding authorities to far more accountability. Like I said, this isn't necessarily always a good thing, but if something's broke, they're far more likely to call you out on it and demand change than previous generations who were either too ignorant or too complaisant to do anything about perceived wrongs. (This does not just include "social justice"; it also includes dated business, educational, and tech models as well.)

So, in essence, Millennials are just like any other generation: they have their good and their bads.
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The problem is that most of them don't know what is broken. They let emotion dictate many of their decisions.
 
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#45
#45
hog88 said:
The problem is that most of them don't know what is broken. They let emotion dictate many of their decisions.
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There's no doubt they often direct their authority-check power to the wrong ends. That being said, they can be incredibly productive too.

I'll give you an example. My wife works for a relatively small (but very globally renowned) entertainment company. She has told me before about how dated much of the business's current approach is and how beholden to its older employees it is. Their has also been a reluctance to adapt to the young employees and their ideas, a factor that has created some tension in the company between the old and the new. While respecting seniority can be a good thing, it can also be bad. The result at her company is not necessarily a lack of production but it could certainly be increased by allowing the younger employees to come into the fold. In particular, new technologies are there for the taking, but the established seniority is too unwilling to adapt.

Luckily, for her company, it is so well-entrenched culturally here and worldwide that it can still be successful no matter what. But if the youth movement there can finally take hold and hold the establishment more accountable, the company will probably become even more successful, especially now that it apparently has a new movie franchise to push over the next few years/decade.
 
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#47
#47
volprof said:
There's no doubt they often direct their authority-check power to the wrong ends. That being said, they can be incredibly productive too.

I'll give you an example. My wife works for a relatively small (but very globally renowned) entertainment company. She has told me before about how dated much of the business's current approach is and how beholden to its older employees it is. Their has also been a reluctance to adapt to the young employees and their ideas, a factor that has created some tension in the company between the old and the new. While respecting seniority can be a good thing, it can also be bad. The result at her company is not necessarily a lack of production but it could certainly be increased by allowing the younger employees to come into the fold. In particular, new technologies are there for the taking, but the established seniority is too unwilling to adapt.

Luckily, for her company, it is so well-entrenched culturally here and worldwide that it can still be successful no matter what. But if the youth movement there can finally take hold and hold the establishment more accountable, the company will probably become even more successful, especially now that it apparently has a new movie franchise to push over the next few years/decade.
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That's pretty much the story with every small/mid-sized firm. Some successful companies become retirement homes with the older employees just wanting to maintain while the younger ones are hungry and pushing.
 
#48
#48
FLVOL_79 said:
This is the difference between being raised in a "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" environment and a "words hurt" environment.


Millennials are the worst.
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I'm on the old end of millennial. Boomers may be the worst.
 
#49
#49
volprof said:
There's no doubt they often direct their authority-check power to the wrong ends. That being said, they can be incredibly productive too.

I'll give you an example. My wife works for a relatively small (but very globally renowned) entertainment company. She has told me before about how dated much of the business's current approach is and how beholden to its older employees it is. Their has also been a reluctance to adapt to the young employees and their ideas, a factor that has created some tension in the company between the old and the new. While respecting seniority can be a good thing, it can also be bad. The result at her company is not necessarily a lack of production but it could certainly be increased by allowing the younger employees to come into the fold. In particular, new technologies are there for the taking, but the established seniority is too unwilling to adapt.

Luckily, for her company, it is so well-entrenched culturally here and worldwide that it can still be successful no matter what. But if the youth movement there can finally take hold and hold the establishment more accountable, the company will probably become even more successful, especially now that it apparently has a new movie franchise to push over the next few years/decade.
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Same with the company I work for. Shocked at some of the out dated philosophies.
 
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