Official Bracketology Thread

#102
#102
BigZiti09 said:
Obviously us.

Just because Avery Johnson is failing doesn't mean I shouldn't want Barnes to do a better job recruiting.

Rick Barnes has completely changed his recruiting targets recently. Meaning his targets are much more highly rated than the past. Everything we are doing on the trail right now points to our staff agreeing with my stance. We need more talent.
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And I alluded to this yesterday...2019 targets look much better, but through 2.5 years I’m not sure many can say the Auburn/Bama/State way of building their programs is better?
 
#103
#103
bleedingTNorange said:
And I alluded to this yesterday...2019 targets look much better, but through 2.5 years I’m not sure many can say the Auburn/Bama/State way of building their programs is better?
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Not a lot of separation though. I know you are pointing to braketology but the season isn't over yet and thus far its just been a bunch of teams who all missed the tournament.

So why is Barnes targeting a different breed of players for 2018 and 2019? Why not just go find more 5* that are ranked 200+?
 
#105
#105
BigZiti09 said:
Idk if Howland will ever put it together. But their ceiling is higher than ours going forward if we don't start landing better players.

You made a good post about recruiting the other day. The "what if" post. What if we had landed just a little better players? Are we 12-2 right now and top 10?

Again, what always gets lost by posters who attack my position is these two things.....

1. I think Barnes has done a good job this year
2. I don't think we should be landing a bunch of 5*. I simply think Barnes can and should do a better job of landing guys who are more highly rated.
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It’s the million dollar question...right now those other teams all landed better players, even 5* and we are the better program currently....is that because Barnes is one hell of a coach, or is that because roster stability is nearly as important as talent level?
 
#106
#106
bleedingTNorange said:
It’s the million dollar question...right now those other teams all landed better players, even 5* and we are the better program currently....is that because Barnes is one hell of a coach, or is that because roster stability is nearly as important as talent level?
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I think our path to success is 4 year players. We aren't gonna be able to do what Cal does.

I just think that we can find those guys without fishing only in the 3* waters.
 
#107
#107
BigZiti09 said:
It was an exaggeration.

You keep recruiting like those teams are doing and you will win most likely. I think Avery Johnson is a bad coach though. Howland on the other hand has won before and I think he will do it again but there's a limit to how much can be done in Starkville.
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What kind of limit? He’s getting the players so talent isn’t an issue, what else would be keeping him from winning?
 
#108
#108
bleedingTNorange said:
What kind of limit? He’s getting the players so talent isn’t an issue, what else would be keeping him from winning?
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It's mississippi state.

Now if he stays there for 20 years and builds it then yeah at some point maybe they become capable of being a power but chances are if he wins for a few years he's leaving that place.

It's not as simple as adding a few 4* and 5* and you've got to have the right coach. Like I said earlier, there's 125 of those per year so lots of teams have those guys.
 
#109
#109
BigZiti09 said:
Not a lot of separation though. I know you are pointing to braketology but the season isn't over yet and thus far its just been a bunch of teams who all missed the tournament.

So why is Barnes targeting a different breed of players for 2018 and 2019? Why not just go find more 5* that are ranked 200+?
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Gaines is ranked 125, similar to guys on our roster.
Burns is ranked 70ish, similar to Pons.
Jitoboh is unranked.
Kira Lewis and Marcus Watson I believe are around that 100 mark, similar area to Bone and Johnson.

Let’s see who he lands but I believe you’ve said yourself there’s not much difference in a guy ranked 100 and a guy ranked 150
 
#111
#111
bleedingTNorange said:
Gaines is ranked 125, similar to guys on our roster.
Burns is ranked 70ish, similar to Pons.
Jitoboh is unranked.
Kira Lewis and Marcus Watson I believe are around that 100 mark, similar area to Bone and Johnson.

Let’s see who he lands but I believe you’ve said yourself there’s not much difference in a guy ranked 100 and a guy ranked 150
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Most times there's not. I think we need to build with guys ranked 30-150. That doesn't mean they all have to be in that range. But they all can't be 125+ either with the lone exception of a guy like pons. And I'm not opposed to sprinkling in the 5* guy every now and then.

I'm not sold on Pons ranking. I think the services didn't really know where to put him. Rivals just slapped a 4* ranking on him and didn't give him a number ranking. Espn did not rank him at all. Idk what scout did. So really he's just been ranked by 247. Everything about him is a unique situation. Barnes gets credit for landing a 4* with him though.

This is kinda changing the discussion but seeing what Florida's basketball program has done over the last 20 years disgusts me. They were a garbage program and made one hire that changed it for them. Really thought we had that with Pearl until it came crashing down.

I think Florida is an example of what we should aspire to be as a program. They aren't a blue blood but they recruit really well and make the dance consistently and occasionally make their runs.
 
#113
#113
What's the deal on Gaines? He's not rated on rivals. Did he reclassify or am I misremembering that?

Edit: or was he an unknown and got ranked by 247 right around the time we landed him? And rivals just hasn't done anything with him yet....
 
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#115
#115
BigZiti09 said:
What's the deal on Gaines? He's not rated on rivals. Did he reclassify or am I misremembering that?

Edit: or was he an unknown and got ranked by 247 right around the time we landed him? And rivals just hasn't done anything with him yet....
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The edit is correct
 
#116
#116
bleedingTNorange said:
I think in that 75-175 is probably gonna be our sweet spot
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See I think we can do better than that. That doesn't mean we can't land guys in that range who are really good. I just think you need top 75 guys in there. There's 75 of those a year so no reason we can't land one or two in every class with 3-5 players coming in.
 
#117
#117
BigZiti09 said:
See I think we can do better than that. That doesn't mean we can't land guys in that range who are really good. I just think you need top 75 guys in there. There's 75 of those a year so no reason we can't land one or two in every class with 3-5 players coming in.
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I just have witnessed so many guys ranked in that area not pan out, especially at UT it seems...

Lofton was a 3*
Richardson a 3*
Watson 4* around the 75 range iirc
Tobias 5* lived up to hype
Stoked 5* who was about as productive as 3* GW
Duke Crews a 5* who wasn’t much
Ramar Smith a 5* but I’d take Bone
Mostella a Top 50 but give me Bowden
Swiperboy 4* Top 50 give me Schofield
Hopson a 5* but I would take Richardson over him

I’m of the belief that say of the Top 50 kids probably only 35 have the right mindset and would be good teammates, of those 35 UK I getting 7, Duke 4, Kansas 3, UNC 3, UCLA 2, etc...when it’s all said and done a lot of the time there aren’t that many left who imo are worth the take if you don’t need the risk...LSU is getting ready to add a 5* with rape allegations, should Tennessee have gotten involved?
 
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#118
#118
BigZiti09 said:
I just said wins were following. Hard to do a lot better than 13-2. Obviously they are gonna have to do well in conference play.

The talent level there is miles better than when he got there. They are gonna be good at some point.

Common misconception by fans (especially posters on this forum) is that 4* guys are immediate impact SEC players. That’s just not true. Take a guy like Jordan McRae. He was here for 2.5 years before he put it together. Then he became a star. Other guys like cam Tatum took a couple years to reach their potential as well. Most of the time it takes a year or two for guys to get their footing. The one and done guys like Tobias are on another level.

So just because you sign some 4* doesn’t mean instant success. But imo it raises your ceiling for the future the more you sign because not only does it give you more talent but the chances of one of those 4* or 5* guys becoming a big time difference maker is better than when you sign guys ranked 200+.
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It's just a curious decision by Howland not play a little tougher schedule with his top two scorers being juniors. I know that sometimes coaches schedule some easy OOC games when they have a young team, and MSU isn't necessarily a veteran team. But Q. Weatherspoon is a junior, and your guys have to play some tougher games to get experience.

The other thing is that it makes your team have to win more games in a league that has become tougher. I think Howland would take 2 more losses to top 50 teams as opposed to two more wins against terrible teams. They have 8 wins against teams outside the top 150, and 5 are above top 250.

Barnes did it correctly, and it has really been perfect that NC State, GTech, and WF aren't great teams but good enough to be solid road wins.
 
#119
#119
bleedingTNorange said:
I just have witnessed so many guys ranked in that area not pan out, especially at UT it seems...

Lofton was a 3*
Richardson a 3*
Watson 4* around the 75 range iirc
Tobias 5* lived up to hype
Stoked 5* who was about as productive as 3* GW
Duke Crews a 5* who wasn’t much
Ramar Smith a 5* but I’d take Bone
Mostella a Top 50 but give me Bowden
Swiperboy 4* Top 50 give me Schofield
Hopson a 5* but I would take Richardson over him

I’m of the belief that say of the Top 50 kids probably only 35 have the right mindset and would be good teammates, of those 35 UK I getting 7, Duke 4, Kansas 3, UNC 3, UCLA 2, etc...when it’s all said and done a lot of the time there aren’t that many left who imo are worth the take if you don’t need the risk...LSU is getting ready to add a 5* with rape allegations, should Tennessee have gotten involved?
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Ramar and Duke are like the 5* at LSU.

Swiper was a complete bust.

If you list the best players (meaning best players as a Vol in their time here) we've signed since Lofton thru the Tyndall era (2004-2014).....

Lofton 146
Tyler Smith 34
Chism 34
Prince - 21
Maze - 3* JUCO (not sure what he was rated in HS)
Hopson - 5
Tobias - 7
McRae - 47
Maymon - 47
Richardson - 124
Stokes - 5* ( no numberical cause of reclassing)
Hubbs - 23
Punter - 3* juco

^^^Richardson and Lofton are the exception for the high school guys. Most are top 75. Punter and Bobby were 3* jucos who panned out nicely for us.

Then you have guys like Tatum 64 and Trae Golden 63 who were major contributors for us.

For every Ramar or Duke I can list a Dmontre Edwards, Derek Reese, Daniel West, Ryan Childress, AJ Davis, Pops, Shembarri Phillips.
 
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#120
#120
Also, Stokes was awesome here. Don't try and downplay him by saying a 3* is as good. That's unfair. Grant has been a big hit for us. Don't cheapen it.
 
#122
#122
BigZiti09 said:
Ramar and Duke are like the 5* at LSU.

Swiper was a complete bust.

If you list the best players we've signed since Lofton thru the Tyndall era.....

Lofton 146
Tyler Smith 34
Chism 34
Prince - 21
Maze - 3* JUCO (not sure what he was rated in HS)
Hopson - 5
Tobias - 7
McRae - 47
Richardson - 124
Stokes - 5* ( no numberical cause of reclassing)
Hubbs - 23
Punter - 3* juco

^^^Richardson and Lofton are the exception for the high school guys. Most are top 75. Punter and Bobby were 3* jucos who panned out nicely for us.

Then you have guys like Tatum 64 and Trae Golden 63 who were major contributors for us.

For every Ramar or Duke I can list a Dmontre Edwards, Derek Reese, Daniel West, Ryan Childress, AJ Davis, Pops, Shembarri Phillips.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure what your above list is? Who you think is best? Everyone who was signed?? I think there’s quite a few ommitted names?
 
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#123
#123
BigZiti09 said:
Also, Stokes was awesome here. Don't try and downplay him by saying a 3* is as good. That's unfair. Grant has been a big hit for us. Don't cheapen it.
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Not downplaying anything, I’m saying Grant was better than a very good player...not that Stokes was as bad as an average player.
 
#124
#124
bleedingTNorange said:
I’m not sure what your above list is? Who you think is best? Everyone who was signed?? I think there’s quite a few ommitted names?
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I'm saying that's our best players since Lofton through the Tyndall era.

Regardless of ranking those are the guys who were the best players for us. I may have missed a transfer. In fact, I know I did. Jeronne Maymon. Ranked 47. I'll edit and add him.
 
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#125
#125
BigZiti09 said:
Obviously us.

Just because Avery Johnson is failing doesn't mean I shouldn't want Barnes to do a better job recruiting.

Rick Barnes has completely changed his recruiting targets recently. Meaning his targets are much more highly rated than the past. Everything we are doing on the trail right now points to our staff agreeing with my stance. We need more talent.
Click to expand...

But everything the staff did before was counterintuitive to your stance. You have complained about his recruiting from day one. I guess what people are trying to make you understand/agree with, is that Barnes has done a better job building his program's foundation.

Now, you didn't like their approach, but you all but admitted that you'd prefer our position over Bama or MSU in your above statement. I think there was purpose in his method, and a lot of people didn't like it, yourself included, but you can't really argue with the results, and hopefully those results now lead to better players. I don't think anyone is insisting we NOT recruit top-100 talent because what we're doing seems to work just fine. Some of us just aren't mailing it in on Barnes because he isn't bringing in 4* after 4* yet, because we feel he can coach up the lesser heralded kids he does land.

The program is still trending up, and when the time comes that it isn't, and Barnes can't get better talent to take us further, then he needs to go. Few would argue otherwise.
 
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