WNBA discussion thread?

[LVsinceJV]

There's no "hate" in his statement. If we apply that word to everything, it will tragically cease to mean anything.

And there are now laws regarding and penalizing "hate," so that's even more reason to use the accusation narrowly and precisely.

We've used "fascist" as a pejorative to label anything we don't like, so that for the past two dozen years, when a gov't agency initiated a policy that actually was economically fascist... nothing got said because the correct term has lost its meaning and its connection to history.

The ultimate result is that we unwittingly move closer to what we all detest, and only the already most powerful gain from it.

Oh an essay from the talkative one I guess I walked into that lol

 

[LVsinceJV]

Hate? Stating an opinion that differs from yours isn't always hate. Their is a reason the WNBA is mocked or made fun of. Like it not it's just the truth. Can you imagine the talk on social media if NBA players were dating or marrying each other? Their would be nonstop talk about it.

Hey I hate too. I just hate on d*ckriders and bandwagon hoppers.

 

[chuckiepoo]

Hey I hate too. I just hate on d*ckriders and bandwagon hoppers.

You say d*ck riders like it’s a bad thing…

 

[Ladyvols4ever]

You say d*ck riders like it’s a bad thing…

Seriously though, who on Earth likes to ride Ducks? Am I right?

 

[chuckiepoo]

Seriously though, who on Earth likes to ride Ducks? Am I right?

…absolutely.

 

[BruisedOrange]

For centuries... hated, demeaned, misunderstood... they searched for a land where they could live in peace amongst their own.

 

[LV renaissance]

Hate? Stating an opinion that differs from yours isn't always hate. Their is a reason the WNBA is mocked or made fun of. Like it not it's just the truth. Can you imagine the talk on social media if NBA players were dating or marrying each other? Their would be nonstop talk about it.

I agree with you about the hate comment regarding Chuckiepoo but you lost me on the social media comment. That is where there is a lot of hate is on all sides, and I never would look to it as a barometer to guide others' behavior. They have been plenty of women players in college and in the pros who have fallen in love with other players with no major consequences on anything than hopefully enriching their own lives, including right here on Rocky Top. As far as men, there is likely a much higher degree of homophobia among male athletes than females (think of all the anti-gay stuff constantly said in male locker-rooms from middle school up). So, it would be nearly impossible to let teammates know you are gay much less in love. It is interesting that there are far more charges of sexual assault and domestic violence against women on the men's side, so I wonder why that is not hurting the NFL/NBA/MLB in a way that gay players would? Things that make you say hmmm.

 

[lvocd]

I agree with you about the hate comment regarding Chuckiepoo but you lost me on the social media comment. That is where there is a lot of hate is on all sides, and I never would look to it as a barometer to guide others' behavior. They have been plenty of women players in college and in the pros who have fallen in love with other players with no major consequences on anything than hopefully enriching their own lives, including right here on Rocky Top. As far as men, there is likely a much higher degree of homophobia among male athletes than females (think of all the anti-gay stuff constantly said in male locker-rooms from middle school up). So, it would be nearly impossible to let teammates know you are gay much less in love. It is interesting that there are far more charges of sexual assault and domestic violence against women on the men's side, so I wonder why that is not hurting the NFL/NBA/MLB in a way that gay players would? Things that make you say hmmm.

Great post.

 

[lvocd]

It's not like workplace romances are a new phenomenon. Just as is true of every straight couple who meet at work, fall in love and eventually marry, for athletes whose "offices" are arenas, much of the reason people mate up is because of the amount of time they spend together during the "workweek."

For professional athletes the amount of time players are together is pretty high since they are not only working closely together in workouts, practice and games, but also in the extensive travel times/hotel stays teams must do, usually together as a group. Really, I think it's kinduva wonder that there aren't even MORE couplings among prosession teammates than there are given how little actual personal time they have to be out there meeting other people. Elite athletes are a bit like warriors, too, in that many form strong bonds with those they put their trust in to get the job done.

 

[BruisedOrange]

It's not like workplace romances are a new phenomenon. Just as is true of every straight couple who meet at work, fall in love and eventually marry, for athletes whose "offices" are arenas, much of the reason people mate up is because of the amount of time they spend together during the "workweek."

For professional athletes the amount of time players are together is pretty high since they are not only working closely together in workouts, practice and games, but also in the extensive travel times/hotel stays teams must do, usually together as a group. Really, I think it's kinduva wonder that there aren't even MORE couplings among prosession teammates than there are given how little actual personal time they have to be out there meeting other people. Elite athletes are a bit like warriors, too, in that many form strong bonds with those they put their trust in to get the job done.

A lot depends on the necessary dynamics of the "work" area. For touring musicians, for instance, romance between band members or singers requires a professionalism that borders on segregation, in order to maintain the interconnectivity to perform, and to keep practice times efficient and focused.

Been there -- did it right -- still blew up in my face!

 

[VolBall09]

It's not like workplace romances are a new phenomenon. Just as is true of every straight couple who meet at work, fall in love and eventually marry, for athletes whose "offices" are arenas, much of the reason people mate up is because of the amount of time they spend together during the "workweek."

For professional athletes the amount of time players are together is pretty high since they are not only working closely together in workouts, practice and games, but also in the extensive travel times/hotel stays teams must do, usually together as a group. Really, I think it's kinduva wonder that there aren't even MORE couplings among prosession teammates than there are given how little actual personal time they have to be out there meeting other people. Elite athletes are a bit like warriors, too, in that many form strong bonds with those they put their trust in to get the job done.

Hetero workplace romances have never and will never be appropriate either. Leave the ish at home.

 

[LV renaissance]

Hetero workplace romances have never and will never be appropriate either. Leave the ish at home.

I agree that work love relationships are complicated and ideally don't happen. The rules of love rarely follow the rules of what is practical (except possibly for gold-diggers).
Addendum: I think the real responsibility of athletes, especially professionals, is to keep relationship drama off the court and out of the locker. I imagine that this could be hard, but that is why work is called work. Most workers in all jobs have days in which they are grappling with intensely emotional issues in their personal life, yet they are expected and do show up for work except in the most extreme cases such as a death in the family.

 

[Terrells Bay88]

Hetero workplace romances have never and will never be appropriate either. Leave the ish at home.

Yet they still exist. Maybe an executive order has to made to ban any workplace romances. I would say maybe they don't need to teammates but I remember from last season some people had an issue with romantic partners playing against each other too. Maybe they just ban lesbians from playing in sports altogether.

 

[knoxvol52]

I agree with you about the hate comment regarding Chuckiepoo but you lost me on the social media comment. That is where there is a lot of hate is on all sides, and I never would look to it as a barometer to guide others' behavior. They have been plenty of women players in college and in the pros who have fallen in love with other players with no major consequences on anything than hopefully enriching their own lives, including right here on Rocky Top. As far as men, there is likely a much higher degree of homophobia among male athletes than females (think of all the anti-gay stuff constantly said in male locker-rooms from middle school up). So, it would be nearly impossible to let teammates know you are gay much less in love. It is interesting that there are far more charges of sexual assault and domestic violence against women on the men's side, so I wonder why that is not hurting the NFL/NBA/MLB in a way that gay players would? Things that make you say hmmm.

Men's Sports automatically cut the players accused of sexual assault or domestic violence

Ray Rice was on film kicking the **** out of his girlfriend.. no job since then. NFL

Julio Urias charged with domestic violence .Dodgers release him the next day.MLB

Trevor Bauer gone to sexual assault.MLB

Roger Goodell of the NFL doesn't play games, if these guys mess up they gone for life unless the accusations are proven to be false later on. The NFL Shield is protected..

 

[chuckiepoo]

Men's Sports automatically cut the players accused of sexual assault or domestic violence

Ray Rice was on film kicking the **** out of his girlfriend.. no job since then. NFL

Julio Urias charged with domestic violence .Dodgers release him the next day.MLB

Trevor Bauer gone to sexual assault.MLB

Roger Goodell of the NFL doesn't play games, if these guys mess up they gone for life unless the accusations are proven to be false later on. The NFL Shield is protected..

Not quite the same discussion. The issue was relationships with team mates. You got any examples of that within the NFL/MLB/NBA?

I would believe there has been a case or two of transactions due to relationships between players but certainly few and far between.

 

[knoxvol52]

Not quite the same discussion. The issue was relationships with team mates. You got any examples of that within the NFL/MLB/NBA?

I would believe there has been a case or two of transactions due to relationships between players but certainly few and far between.

No, I don't know of any relationships in Men's Sports.By chance if there are any it's kept on the downlow. Remember they had that love triangle on the Arkansas men's team two years ago and caused conflict on the team.

 

[dapeak]

[Warning: another "talkative essay" -- but only in order to ask a sincere WNBA question, with the hope of establishing truth that might allow us to find more common ground]
-----
I'm writing this post to ask if there's an elephant in the WNBA (locker)room that cannot be easily or officially discussed. My question has no agenda beyond to become better informed. So I'll try to limit any statements to things I know/knew firsthand, and attempt to be truthful and forthright without being acrimonious or insensitive.

[cue the fool to rush in]

30-40 years ago, my career required me to subscribe to, and be networked with, groups and organizations who monitored (non-academic) social and intellectual trends on college & university campuses across the U.S. I was also working with students at a small, Division III university.

This campus was rurally located, offered the lowest tuition in the state system, and thus attracted "economically disadvantaged" kids from farms and small towns, and urban kids from the state's largest city. Athletically, we were only average except for a good wrestling team and our women's sports being very good. I'm guessing this was due to all those boys and girls who were "farm strong" and long accustomed to doing physical tasks with leverage and efficiency.

Then one day one of our female athletes called in to the old Phil Donohue Show, and in her question to the guest mentioned our university and stated that 20% of our female students were lesbian! Now, that wasn't nearly true. The national average back then was only 5-6% and identities were pretty open on our campus. But the next year and thereafter, we were inundated with overtly, militantly lesbian, transfers. At that time, "Gay Rights" was neither socially nor politically influential in that state.

What put this on my radar was when I began getting calls from dorm heads and female students complaining about how hard lesbian girls were "recruiting" heterosexual girls. This was all new to me, so I began researching and tapping into my networks around the country, and learned that this was [at that time, and maybe still is -- that's the question I'm getting to] a common pattern or phenomena, not unique to the US, and very difficult at that time for schools to address*.

What I learned then was that the pattern of self-identifying lesbian social groups/cliques was similar to that of male street gangs: identify targets, rush/seduce/intimidate--first by threat of physical violence, then frequently by actual physical violence (and among campus lesbians, this was typically non-consensual sex when the victim was drunk). This was what administrators and student advocates were observing--most of whom were instinctively sympathetic to minority groups.

All of this produced an acronym that became very common back then. LTG: Lesbian 'Til Graduation. I saw it often on our campus. Feminine girls who dated guys, who suddenly became lesbian... but then within a year or two after graduating, married a man.

Meanwhile, the lesbian athletes were becoming increasingly aggressive, even intimidating their adult dorm heads!

(As an aside, let me note here that a large, 1970s psychological study with over a hundred unrelated questions accidentally discovered a correlation between homosexuality in teens and adults, and having been sexually molested as a young child. To my knowledge, that correlation has never been studied intentionally, except when financed by groups wishing to disprove it. Maybe that's relevant to the question here; maybe it isn't.)

So, is this the question we're all tip-toeing around?

Within the WNBA, and within teams, are lesbian athletes aggressively recruiting heterosexual girls in ways that would be legally impermissible by any other self-identifying groups, under any other conditions? Is that what's behind the excess of malevolent, physical misbehavior on-court in the WNBA? Is that what's actually driving the seemingly excessive fouling of Caitlin Clark? Any of us (especially from behind an avatar) can toss accusations. But is this actually the truth?

Or, is there a purely "basketball" reason behind it? I'm honestly asking, from anyone with knowledge.

IMHO, as a society, we need to be able to ask and answer questions truthfully and honestly. We are just as condemned for dismissing or refusing to acknowledge the KKK back in its day, as we are today to ignore or dismiss any other self-identifying group which wants to enjoy special privileges at the cost of others. We're all in this together. It's only powerful elites who want to keep us divided against each other over issues secondary to Constitutionally guaranteed individual sovereignty. ....IMHO.

---
* At that time it was difficult for schools to address this problem for two reasons: (1) admitting their campus had a "lesbian gang problem" would immediately result in fewer female enrollees (who were already the majority of students--a demographic trend that would continue to curve upward), and because (2) at that time, homosexuality was still listed in DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) as a syndrome, and recent federal rulings had left state-funded universities unable to do anything "discriminative" against students whose behaviors resulted from mental disorders.

To show you how stymied schools were at that time, two years earlier (as a student at another university), I had been asked to voluntarily drop out of a seminar class because a schizophrenic woman who had signed up for the class had a crush on me and would constantly interrupt my presentations with crazy, embarrassingly inappropriate, personal "observations." She totally disrupted the class, deprived everyone of important material, but she could not be removed! Privately, the administration was supportive of me. But legally, their hands were tied. They could either discontinue the course mid-semester and screw all the doctoral students, or, if I would consent to voluntarily drop the class, hopefully she would then shut up or lose interest and stop attending the class.

The truth is, the W has always been a rough and tough league. I don’t think she’s being targeted as you can see similar fouls or worse in other games that don’t involve her however in those games I think the general public/her fans view them as egregious yet still a part of the game/some players games. For instance, Alyssa Thomas has always been physical. She literally dove for Candace’s knees. Should she not be her because she’s playing Caitlin? No. Now is it dangerous lol absolutely! But it’s not because she’s a lesbian coming for a straight girl. Same with Chennedy Carter who literally had a video fighting at a food truck go viral. Same with Marina who is known for being spicy. So forth and so on.

I’m not sure if this would be establishing truth or seeking confirmation in a bias you may already hold considering how it was presented. This may be a dangerous road to go down on this particular forum, however I hope that provides some clarity to you and others that these ladies are playing ball. That’s it. There are draymond green’s in every sport and league. Let’s be real.

 

[chuckiepoo]

Hmm. I’ll recuse myself on this subthread as I am clearly not qualified to speak on the matter.

 

[spojo13]

[Warning: another "talkative essay" -- but only in order to ask a sincere WNBA question, with the hope of establishing truth that might allow us to find more common ground]
-----
I'm writing this post to ask if there's an elephant in the WNBA (locker)room that cannot be easily or officially discussed. My question has no agenda beyond to become better informed. So I'll try to limit any statements to things I know/knew firsthand, and attempt to be truthful and forthright without being acrimonious or insensitive.

[cue the fool to rush in]

30-40 years ago, my career required me to subscribe to, and be networked with, groups and organizations who monitored (non-academic) social and intellectual trends on college & university campuses across the U.S. I was also working with students at a small, Division III university.

This campus was rurally located, offered the lowest tuition in the state system, and thus attracted "economically disadvantaged" kids from farms and small towns, and urban kids from the state's largest city. Athletically, we were only average except for a good wrestling team and our women's sports being very good. I'm guessing this was due to all those boys and girls who were "farm strong" and long accustomed to doing physical tasks with leverage and efficiency.

Then one day one of our female athletes called in to the old Phil Donohue Show, and in her question to the guest mentioned our university and stated that 20% of our female students were lesbian! Now, that wasn't nearly true. The national average back then was only 5-6% and identities were pretty open on our campus. But the next year and thereafter, we were inundated with overtly, militantly lesbian, transfers. At that time, "Gay Rights" was neither socially nor politically influential in that state.

What put this on my radar was when I began getting calls from dorm heads and female students complaining about how hard lesbian girls were "recruiting" heterosexual girls. This was all new to me, so I began researching and tapping into my networks around the country, and learned that this was [at that time, and maybe still is -- that's the question I'm getting to] a common pattern or phenomena, not unique to the US, and very difficult at that time for schools to address*.

What I learned then was that the pattern of self-identifying lesbian social groups/cliques was similar to that of male street gangs: identify targets, rush/seduce/intimidate--first by threat of physical violence, then frequently by actual physical violence (and among campus lesbians, this was typically non-consensual sex when the victim was drunk). This was what administrators and student advocates were observing--most of whom were instinctively sympathetic to minority groups.

All of this produced an acronym that became very common back then. LTG: Lesbian 'Til Graduation. I saw it often on our campus. Feminine girls who dated guys, who suddenly became lesbian... but then within a year or two after graduating, married a man.

Meanwhile, the lesbian athletes were becoming increasingly aggressive, even intimidating their adult dorm heads!

(As an aside, let me note here that a large, 1970s psychological study with over a hundred unrelated questions accidentally discovered a correlation between homosexuality in teens and adults, and having been sexually molested as a young child. To my knowledge, that correlation has never been studied intentionally, except when financed by groups wishing to disprove it. Maybe that's relevant to the question here; maybe it isn't.)

So, is this the question we're all tip-toeing around?

Within the WNBA, and within teams, are lesbian athletes aggressively recruiting heterosexual girls in ways that would be legally impermissible by any other self-identifying groups, under any other conditions? Is that what's behind the excess of malevolent, physical misbehavior on-court in the WNBA? Is that what's actually driving the seemingly excessive fouling of Caitlin Clark? Any of us (especially from behind an avatar) can toss accusations. But is this actually the truth?

Or, is there a purely "basketball" reason behind it? I'm honestly asking, from anyone with knowledge.

IMHO, as a society, we need to be able to ask and answer questions truthfully and honestly. We are just as condemned for dismissing or refusing to acknowledge the KKK back in its day, as we are today to ignore or dismiss any other self-identifying group which wants to enjoy special privileges at the cost of others. We're all in this together. It's only powerful elites who want to keep us divided against each other over issues secondary to Constitutionally guaranteed individual sovereignty. ....IMHO.

---
* At that time it was difficult for schools to address this problem for two reasons: (1) admitting their campus had a "lesbian gang problem" would immediately result in fewer female enrollees (who were already the majority of students--a demographic trend that would continue to curve upward), and because (2) at that time, homosexuality was still listed in DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) as a syndrome, and recent federal rulings had left state-funded universities unable to do anything "discriminative" against students whose behaviors resulted from mental disorders.

To show you how stymied schools were at that time, two years earlier (as a student at another university), I had been asked to voluntarily drop out of a seminar class because a schizophrenic woman who had signed up for the class had a crush on me and would constantly interrupt my presentations with crazy, embarrassingly inappropriate, personal "observations." She totally disrupted the class, deprived everyone of important material, but she could not be removed! Privately, the administration was supportive of me. But legally, their hands were tied. They could either discontinue the course mid-semester and screw all the doctoral students, or, if I would consent to voluntarily drop the class, hopefully she would then shut up or lose interest and stop attending the class.

Did you just compare lesbians to the KKK? As a gay man, I can tell you that we are not recruiting anyone nor using intimidation to coerce anyone to join us. Where are the mods? This thread is off the rails.

 

[BruisedOrange]

Did you just compare lesbians to the KKK? As a gay man, I can tell you that we are not recruiting anyone nor using intimidation to coerce anyone to join us. Where are the mods? This thread is off the rails.

I have never heard, firsthand or otherwise, of gay men recruiting that way.

I limited my post to widely observed patterns among lesbian groups several decades ago on college campuses, and did so only to ask the question IF that is happening today.

 

[BruisedOrange]

Did you just compare lesbians to the KKK? As a gay man, I can tell you that we are not recruiting anyone nor using intimidation to coerce anyone to join us. Where are the mods? This thread is off the rails.

Any group, movement, or organization which uses intimidation and employs political cover to avoid responsibility for their actions would be, ipso facto, comparable. And what I was comparing was how society responds to those perceptions or realities.

Your "compare" question employs an elementary logical fallacy intended to inflame emotional reaction. I've really tried hard to keep my question honest, rational, and without accusation or judgement.

 

[Terrells Bay88]

The truth is, the W has always been a rough and tough league. I don’t think she’s being targeted as you can see similar fouls or worse in other games that don’t involve her however in those games I think the general public/her fans view them as egregious yet still a part of the game/some players games. For instance, Alyssa Thomas has always been physical. She literally dove for Candace’s knees. Should she not be her because she’s playing Caitlin? No. Now is it dangerous lol absolutely! But it’s not because she’s a lesbian coming for a straight girl. Same with Chennedy Carter who literally had a video fighting at a food truck go viral. Same with Marina who is known for being spicy. So forth and so on.

I’m not sure if this would be establishing truth or seeking confirmation in a bias you may already hold considering how it was presented. This may be a dangerous road to go down on this particular forum, however I hope that provides some clarity to you and others that these ladies are playing ball. That’s it. There are draymond green’s in every sport and league. Let’s be real.

It was Courtney Williams (who is a lesbian) that was in the food truck video. Marina Mabrey and Sophie Cunningham who are straight don’t mind fighting. There's rumors that the WNBA savior herself is a lesbian but I guess she will come out late in her career like Sue Bird and Candace Parker did.

This thread has definitely gone off the rails.

 

[dapeak]

It was Courtney Williams (who is a lesbian) that was in the food truck video. Marina Mabrey and Sophie Cunningham who are straight don’t mind fighting. There's rumors that the WNBA savior herself is a lesbian but I guess she will come out late in her career like Sue Bird and Candace Parker did.

This thread has definitely gone off the rails.

You’re right lol Chennedy was just in atlanta cutting up in the locker room. But yeah I don’t think it’s a truly good faith conversation because as someone who’s watched this league like… that’s not it lol the players just get after it. Poor Cheryl Ford was the biggest victim of players getting after it in the league

 

[BruisedOrange]

As long as the passing game is smart and well executed, it should be good basketball to watch.

There was an era when I would recommend (college) women's basketball to my male, "under the rim" players, because those were the best examples of the game these young guys would be playing. Emulating what they saw in the upper echelons of men's basketball transformed into terrible basketball in their younger, shorter, basketball dimension.

I don't have TV anymore, and am mostly looking now for players/teams to recommend to my 92-year old mother, who began to sour on her NBA League Pass this past season. "Unwatchable."

And, of course, I follow our Lady Vols with renewed interest (thanks, Danny!).

 

[Ladyvols4ever]

You’re right lol Chennedy was just in atlanta cutting up in the locker room. But yeah I don’t think it’s a truly good faith conversation because as someone who’s watched this league like… that’s not it lol the players just get after it. Poor Cheryl Ford was the biggest victim of players getting after it in the league

This topic has me confused. What exactly do you mean when you say get after "it?"