Why the Passing game has been struggling.

#51
#51
Nasavol said:
Take out the KY and BGSU games and Dobbs has a QBR of 55 over 10 games. He very much is an average QB.
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He's an average passer who's not even being allowed to be average at this point. He's made some really good throws vs some SEC defenses in his brief UT career....couple that with him being an elite running QB and you have a potentially special QB....take the 60% throwing out of the offense as is currently being done, and you have a one-dimensional offense that is half as efficient as it could be. Tailor the offense and playcalling to his strengths, which I think we all assumed was being done anyway, and watch him and the rest of the offense, the rest of the playmakers flourish. Don't, and we'll continue to get the crap we're currently getting.

And, please note that I was comparing him, accurately, to one of the worst QBs in SEC history, Nate Peterman....my comments on Dobbs weren't made in a vacuum.

Finally, the whole "don't count this game....take that game out of the mix....act as though that game never happened" is kinda lame IMO. They did happen, he did perform well and it all counts as a part of his "record". Otherwise, I could calculate his stats minus the Oklahoma and 2014Vandy games....
 
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#52
#52
sjt18 said:
There are problems in all areas... Some of you are just trying to make this simple when it isn't.

Dobbs- He has an accurate and strong arm. He's demonstrated that in practice and elsewhere. But he doesn't show any ability to put air under the ball. He does not "anticipate" well meaning he doesn't lead receivers well, throw to a spot, or throw them open. He doesn't "see" things.... Surprisingly he may struggle with pre and post snap reads. Some want to blame the OL alone but you need to take another look at Dobbs. He does a poor job of managing the pocket. On the first sack given up by Kendrick, Dobbs could have stepped up. He didn't feel the rush and took the sack. He does a pretty poor job of setting up screens.

OL- They're not off the hook either. Communication is suspect. After 3 years, some still don't seem to "get" the system or what they're expected to do. Some of them just flat out get beat. Dobbs needs to step up into the pocket to help the OT's... but the middle OL's have to create a pocket to step into. Crowder was usually blamed... but things don't look much better with Weisman at OG. Thomas seems to be doing better. There are times when the footwork is nothing short of terrible.

WR/TE- There are too many bad things happening before anything they do matters to really tell how bad they're playing. BUT... the don't get off press coverage well for sure. They do not make very aggressive plays on the ball. None have really shown they can use their speed to create separation early enough for Dobbs to deliver... but most of that is on Dobbs and the OL.


Scheme- This is the one thing most often ignored but probably the biggest thing. Where are the quick passes like the ones UF had success with vs UT? After OU, they still can't seem to find underneath crossing routes to give Dobbs a quick outlet when opposing D's bring the house. Where are the fades that can go deep without having Dobbs hold the ball long? Why do they seem to never isolate a UT WR on one side then get them the ball quickly? Just consider Jennings. If you isolate him and get him the ball on a hitch or quick slant... I like his chances to create something big against any DB in the SEC.

Rather than going into every detail of what we're not seeing from this scheme... Just imagine the same personnel with Cutcliffe in charge. Does anyone believe he wouldn't find ways to be productive throwing the ball? Does anyone really believe the run game would be hurt by a better pass game?


Jones has been rigid to his "system" since he arrived. He is focused on execution which I still love. But at some point... if OL's cannot learn to effectively block for the system against the level of competition you play... receivers can't learn to get open... and the QB can't deliver the ball... you have to question whether the system is a problem. Maybe it is too complex. Maybe it just requires a level of perfect execution that isn't realistic. Maybe it just flat doesn't work against a league filled with elite athletes.

Whatever it is... Jones needs to have both the intelligence and the humility to figure it out soon.
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Great post. I'd also add that it is had to have any type of continuity at the WR position when they rotate as much as they do. Having fresh legs is important, but when you don't run any further than 10 yards down the field, how tired can the wideouts be.
 
#53
#53
Blocking.... can't stretch the field if you don't have the time to look downfield..I don't mean 10. I mean 30 + to have a DEEP threat.
 
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#55
#55
volfaninutah said:
Blocking.... can't stretch the field if you don't have the time to look downfield..I don't mean 10. I mean 30 + to have a DEEP threat.
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We're barely even doing that. We completely abandoned the intermediate game in the second half vs. OU and all game versus UF.

Dobbs has shown that he can make intermediate throws more often than not. Hopefully the coaching staff finally realizes it.
 
#56
#56
volfaninutah said:
Blocking.... can't stretch the field if you don't have the time to look downfield..I don't mean 10. I mean 30 + to have a DEEP threat.
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You can "stretch the field" by running 15-20 yard seams routes (a pass that Dobbs throws very well) and 15-20 yd back should "go routes".....both are fairly quick timing routes and neither requires much time at all to develop.

The first pass we attempted vs Florida where Dobbs was sacked was a long-developing route where Dobbs pump faked as though the WR was running some type of double move go route. Didn't understand the play given that our OL doesn't provide a ton of time for Dobbs. But we can be effective throwing short to intermediate routes mixed in with some skinny posts, seam routes, slants and shorter fade routes to the boundaries. There's just no reason to totally abandon the entire passing game like we've done just because our OL can't give Dobbs 4-5 seconds of protection to throw 40 yard fly routes IMO.
 
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#57
#57
UTCVol said:
We're barely even doing that. We completely abandoned the intermediate game in the second half vs. OU and all game versus UF.

Dobbs has shown that he can make intermediate throws more often than not. Hopefully the coaching staff finally realizes it.
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Couldn't agree more. I catalogued in the offseason more than once the number of 20+ yd throws that Dobbs made last year, that weren't catch and runs by our WRs/RBs. There were a lot of them. He can definitely make those throws....he just needs to be given the opportunities to do so.
 
#59
#59
I thought North was healthy? I know he got dinged in training camp--surprise!--but I thought he'd fully recovered from whatever injury that was. What the heck is wrong with him now? The guy is a physical freak and yet is always nursing some injury! Seldom plays! He missed, what, the last half of last season. And how is Pig hurt? Absurd.
 
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#60
#60
here's what I think: I think our offensive coaches, and our offensive coaching, is terrible. WEAK. Our passing game has been WEIRD and ineffective since Jones & Co. got here--odd stance, playing too many guys; it's just been a disjointed mess. Pig Howard was good last year, I expected him to be a real weapon this year--and he's been a freakin' complete no show! He's suspended, he is healthy but doesn't get the ball, then he nicked....what a cockup.
 
#61
#61
I have yet to see how this offensive scheme is worth a hoot. Its a gimmick offense for teams that have a lack of talent. Its predicated on having a an athletic qb who can run and hit short passes to wr in space. I don't think this scheme puts much emphasis on offensive line play, instead it relies on a quick pace that can catch a defense flat footed. This offense can work in mid major conferences. It will not work in the SEC with sustained success.

Our running stats are great but if you look closely at the video and not the numbers, Dobbs and hurd are getting these yards in spite of the offensive line.

I don't think Jones and his staff have any knowledge of development of sound offensive line techniques because this offense doesn't call for it. Its more about having lineman who can get up to the line of scrimmage for the next play faster than the defense.
 
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#62
#62
Clockwork Orange said:
Kerbyson has improved, but the struggles come from the right side of the line from Weisman and Kendrick. In the first quarter against Florida, we dialed up a deep throw, but Kendrick got beat by Alexander for a blindsided sack and it ended up being a big loss.
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The last time I checked Dobbs is right handed; therefore, he was not "blindsided". Dobbs was simply blind on the play and never saw him coming. His pocket presence definitely needs some work.
 
#64
#64
VolsFan-TX said:
There are WRs in each passing play. For Hubbs and others to say we only targeted them x times forgets that there are progressions the QB goes through. Perhaps the 15+ yd route isn't the primary target, but if it is open, then the pass can be made. Watching Dobbs from the stands, you can see open WR that are not getting the ball thrown to them. I agree with others that the coaches do not seem to have trust in him to throw, so they may not be giving him many options to check-off or deviate from the primary receiver. If you watch Dobbs in pre-game warm-ups, you will see a number of inaccurate passes. I am not suggesting a QB change, but Dormady is much more accurate (at least before the live rush).
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the playaction we use is a detriment to our passing game. Dobbs has to read the run defense, use play action and then get set and read the secondary. That's a lot of steps just to get to the point of Passing the ball. With our wr routes on the sidelines even though they are open its only for a second and easily defended. That ball needs to be out at least a second earlier. I honestly don't believe he and our wr has had a winners chance due to our scheme not causing mismatches. I could be wrong, probably am but I don't think anyone can say dobbs absolutely can't throw the ball. It is what it is though.
 
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#65
#65
KBVol said:
You can "stretch the field" by running 15-20 yard seams routes (a pass that Dobbs throws very well) and 15-20 yd back should "go routes".....both are fairly quick timing routes and neither requires much time at all to develop.

The first pass we attempted vs Florida where Dobbs was sacked was a long-developing route where Dobbs pump faked as though the WR was running some type of double move go route. Didn't understand the play given that our OL doesn't provide a ton of time for Dobbs. But we can be effective throwing short to intermediate routes mixed in with some skinny posts, seam routes, slants and shorter fade routes to the boundaries. There's just no reason to totally abandon the entire passing game like we've done just because our OL can't give Dobbs 4-5 seconds of protection to throw 40 yard fly routes IMO.
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This! I was watching a NFL primetime or one of those highlight shows and they were showing Andy Dalton's pass to AJ Green (it went for a TD). The pass was thrown to a spot 18-20 yards down field before Green had even got passed the CB and Green ran to it caught it and took it to the house. Think SJT said it earlier, but does Dobbs throw open a WR? In one of the games in the 90s Spurrier had his QB (Palmer I think) take 3-5 step drops and throw 10-20 yard fade routes to the outside and WR ran into the space. When the fade route started to be covered, it was quick slants for 5-10 yards. Dobbs doesn't need 4-5 seconds to catch the ball, put a little air under it, and throw it to a spot and let our big WRs go catch the ball.
 
#66
#66
deaconkane said:
the playaction we use is a detriment to our passing game. Dobbs has to read the run defense, use play action and then get set and read the secondary. That's a lot of steps just to get to the point of Passing the ball. With our wr routes on the sidelines even though they are open its only for a second and easily defended. That ball needs to be out at least a second earlier. I honestly don't believe he and our wr has had a winners chance due to our scheme not causing mismatches. I could be wrong, probably am but I don't think anyone can say dobbs absolutely can't throw the ball. It is what it is though.
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And This Too!
 
#67
#67
Well, why Vols hasn't call plays for deep passing because I haven't seen a long threat passing yet. North & Malone is one of impact players who can catch a long passing game. I know offense line is stuggling, but come on, man! You gonna do it once in a while... I don't care if Dobbs not a pocket passer, but he knows where to aim & let North/Malone do a dirty trick...
 
#69
#69
Clockwork Orange said:
A lot of people want to blame Azzani and Debord for lack of WR production, but the lack of offense in the passing game is for a combination of different reasons.

1. Marquez North and Pig Howard have been injured

Our two top playmakers in the passing game, have either been playing hurt or have been out of the game. Pearson and Josh Malone have struggled, at the times when Dobbs has tried to get them the ball. This could be blamed on Azzani, but he also has had to groom two freshmen one of which was a QB until Fall camp and has turned out to be one of our best players. He deserves some credit for Jennings.


2. Offensive line struggles at passblocking.

Kerbyson has improved, but the struggles come from the right side of the line from Weisman and Kendrick. In the first quarter against Florida, we dialed up a deep throw, but Kendrick got beat by Alexander for a blindsided sack and it ended up being a big loss.


3. Dobbs is not an accurate passer

Dobbs has improved his mechanics, but still has been inconsistent at times. I think Dobbs has not shown the coaches in practice that he can be effective throwing accurately. Dobbs is a gamer, and I think coaches need to have more faith in Dobbs to deliver the throw, especially when the running game has progressed so well. Coach Jones has said they will make passing the ball more of an emphasis against Arkansas so we will see.
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I would disagree. the real problem with the passing game is debord. it is that simple.
 
#70
#70
champyvol said:
I would disagree. the real problem with the passing game is debord. it is that simple.
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100%

You can't tell me with all the talent we have out there that they can't get the ball to them. DeBord doesn't want to take the risks that are involved in the pass game because he is horrible at calling plays. point blank. DeBord is a bad OC, and Butch is his little do boy and will not/ won't correct his errors. So we will watch 67% runs, and bubble screens all year long. :mad:
 
#71
#71
sjt18 said:
The one thing that I think is the easiest to fix and wanted discussion on separately is QB drops. I finally got the stomach to watch the first half of the UF game again last night. It seems that on every PA and drop back that Dobbs sets in almost the same spot.

They do not vary his drop. That may be why D's don't bite when he tries to set screens up. They know what's coming if he drops more than two steps.

They also do not move the pocket. OU did a very good job of relocating the pocket.

Opposing D's have noticed. They know that Dobbs seldom steps up into the pocket and that he's going to set up in virtually the same place on every pass past the LOS.

Am I seeing this wrong? Has anyone else noticed?
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You are seeing some of the things I've seen as well. Either the coaching staff is dumb (which I don't think they are) or their confidence in Dobbs as a QB isn't as high as they portray. He is a gamer and plays as well as he can. Rick Clausen type (I think RC could read a defense a lot better than Dobbs though).

He doesn't have the throwing accuracy, football IQ or the "feel" a QB needs to have. No one can deny his athletic ability, but it's the other things that make a QB great.
 
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#72
#72
LittleDTO said:
You are seeing some of the things I've seen as well. Either the coaching staff is dumb (which I don't think they are) or their confidence in Dobbs as a QB isn't as high as they portray. He is a gamer and plays as well as he can. Rick Clausen type (I think RC could read a defense a lot better than Dobbs though).

He doesn't have the throwing accuracy, football IQ or the "feel" a QB needs to have. No one can deny his athletic ability, but it's the other things that make a QB great.
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We run the Dink and Dunk offense.
 
#73
#73
We only need to get the ball in the air, and let these guys go and get it.

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