Who/What's to blame if we don't make NCAA tourney?

#77
#77
HotlantaVol said:
They are anything but niche, Hat. The music is ubiquitous, played broadly on many different radio stations (rock, jazz, and adult contemporary), used in movie after movie, etc. Hell, they even wrote the title song for the motion picture FM.
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And performed it, too.

hat, maybe you should read the wikpedia entry for them. Here's a sample:

Steely Dan's enigmatic, sardonically humorous and topical lyrics add to the appeal of the songs. Although Becker and Fagen might have at first owed a certain lyrical debt to Bob Dylan, they rapidly developed a distinctive style and have since become one of the most accomplished and respected songwriting teams of their age.

Music

Becker and Fagen favor a distinctly soul-influenced style of backing vocal, which after the first few albums were almost always performed by a female chorus (although Michael McDonald features prominently on several tracks, including the 1975 song "Black Friday" and the 1977 song "Peg"). The band was known for using session players such as Michael McDonald on their recordings. On several albums they used the session trio of Venetta Fields, Shirley Matthews, and Clydie King, who have appeared on many other famous recordings including albums by The Rolling Stones and Boz Scaggs.
The attraction of Steely Dan's music also comes partly from the structure of each song, which often contain counter-melodies and solid but supple rhythms. It also comes from the sound of each instrument, which are recorded with the utmost fidelity and attention to sonic detail, and mixed so that all the instruments are heard and none are given undue priority (a deft and accomplished use of the multi-tracking process). For example, in the song "Parker's Band", two drum kits are used (a technique which was standard in the Big Band era), which gives the song an unexpected drive, without overpowering the sound; it is not even immediately apparent that there are two drum kits on the track. Their albums are also notable for the characteristically 'warm' and 'dry' production sound, and the sparing use of echo and reverberation — effects which were often heavily over-used on other rock recordings of this period. Long known as perfectionists, they often recorded take after take before selecting the player or performance that made the final cut on their albums.

Use of unusual harmonies and chord sequences

Steely Dan are famous for their use of chord sequences and harmonies that explore the area of musical tension between traditional pop music sounds and jazz. To conventional rock listeners, this sometimes seemed to be avant-garde music. In particular, they are known for their use of the mu major chord, often simply known to rock musicians as the "Steely Dan chord". Other staples of the Steely Dan "Chord Dictionary" include so-called slash chords, for example Bb/C or E/A. Slash chords formed from a bass note and a major chord based on a note a perfect fifth above the bass note, such as E/A, were commonly used, often as alternatives to the closely-related major 7th and major 9th chords (E/A can also be written as Amaj9(no 3rd)).

Lyrics

Lyrically, their songs cover a wide range of topics, but in their basic approach Becker and Fagen's writing can be compared with the observational, novelistic style of Lou Reed, and with songwriters such as Randy Newman, who specialises in creating fictional personas that narrate the song. The duo have said that in retrospect, most of their albums have a 'feel' of either Los Angeles or New York, the two main bases where Becker and Fagen lived and operated (see below). Characters appear in their songs that evoke these cities. Themes of sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll appear, but never in a straightforward manner, neither encouraging or discouraging, and many (if not all) of their songs are tinged with an ironic edge.

Additionally, many would argue that Steely Dan never wrote a real love song. However, some of the demo-era recordings show Fagen and Becker at their most romantic. Such songs include "This Seat's Been Taken", "Oh, Wow, It's You" and "Come Back Baby". Some lyrics are notable for their unusual scansion patterns; a prime example of this is their 1972 hit "Reelin' In The Years", which crams an unusually large number of words into each line, giving it a highly syncopated quality. Other themes are also present, such as prejudice, aging, failure, poverty and middle-class ennui, but these are typically seen from an ironic and detached perspective. Many of their songs concern love, but none can be classed as straightforward love songs, since there is inevitably an ironic or disturbing twist in the lyrics. One may think the song is about love on first inspection, however, upon deeper analysis the listener realizes that the real story is about rape, prostitution, incest, or some other socially unacceptable subject.
Steely Dan's lyrics contain subtle/coded references, unusual (and sometimes original) slang expressions, a wide variety of "word games" and intriguing lyrical choices and constructions of considerable depth. The obscure and sometimes teasing lyrics have given rise to considerable efforts by fans to explain the "inner meaning" of certain songs.

Jazz is a recurring theme, with references abounding in their songs, and there are numerous other film, television and literary references and allusions, such as "Home At Last" (from Aja), which was inspired by The Odyssey.

"Namechecking" is another Steely Dan lyrical device; references to real places and people abound in their songs. The song "My Old School" is a well-known example, referring to Bard College (which both attended and where they met), and the Two Against Nature album (2000) contains numerous references to the duo's original home region, the New York metro area, including the district of Gramercy Park bookstore The Strand and well-known upmarket food business Dean & DeLuca.
 
#78
#78
Oh after back tracking I see this thread left the road somewhere around the 3rd or 4th post.

Back to the game.
 
#82
#82
hatvol96 said:
The last concert I attended was an Eric Clapton/Robert Cray show at the AAA in Miami about a month ago.
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Clapton is an excellent musician, obviously. But certainly you would agree that it is highly likely that the fans of one would be the fan-base of the other? Same time-frame for major works.
 
#83
#83
HotlantaVol said:
Hat, do you appreciate good wine? Good scotch? Would you argue that to appreciate such things you need an educated and discriminating palate?

If so, why refer to people that have that discriminating palate as it relates to music as dweebs?

Really good music is timeless. Do you hate George Gershwin just because he wrote songs in the 20s and 30s?
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I enjoy the work of the Gershwins, Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller, Les Brown, etc. I don't like the work of self indulgent auditory theory dorks being passed off as music.
 
#84
#84
hatvol96 said:
I enjoy the work of the Gershwins, Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller, Les Brown, etc. I don't like the work of self indulgent auditory theory dorks being passed off as music.
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Both Fagen and Becker have their roots in blues and jazz, growing directly out of the big band era. That's part of the reason that they tour with ten folks in their band -- to get that full and complex sound. so much going on. Yet it comes together to promote or backdrop the lyrical story they so often tell.

Really, if you like the above-musicians, particularly for their ingenuity, then the Dan is for you.
 
#85
#85
lawgator1 said:
Clapton is an excellent musician, obviously. But certainly you would agree that it is highly likely that the fans of one would be the fan-base of the other? Same time-frame for major works.
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To some extent. However, Clapton has never left the public conciousness. He hit the charts on a regular basis through the '80s and '90s. Steely Done was as relevant in the '90s as Sha Na Na.
 
#86
#86
hatvol96 said:
I enjoy the work of the Gershwins, Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller, Les Brown, etc. I don't like the work of self indulgent auditory theory dorks being passed off as music.
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Milton Babbitt and John Cage are examples of "self-indulgent auditory theory" dorks, not Fagen and Becker.

Have you not heard of Babbitt and Cage? If so, that's why. Their music was purely academic, and never had any broad appeal. So whatever Fagen's and Becker's artistic motivations are, they have succeeded in getting a very broad audience for their music.
 
#87
#87
HotlantaVol said:
Milton Babbitt and John Cage are examples of "self-indulgent auditory theory" dorks, not Fagen and Becker.

Have you not heard of Babbitt and Cage? If so, that's why. Their music was purely academic, and never had any broad appeal. So whatever Fagen's and Becker's artistic motivations are, they have succeeded in getting a very broad audience for their music.
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Their audience is about 1/10th as large as Steely Done fans think it is. They reunite and go on the road, they draw nice crowds at midlevel prices in second tier venues. If, for example, the Police chose to go back out on tour, they would sell out every premier venue in the world at $200 per ticket.
 
#88
#88
hatvol96 said:
Their audience is about 1/10th as large as Steely Done fans think it is. They reunite and go on the road, they draw nice crowds at midlevel prices in second tier venues. If, for example, the Police chose to go back out on tour, they would sell out every premier venue in the world at $200 per ticket.
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But, Hat, lower concert draws are due to the fact that they're first and foremost about making music in the studio. They've always been that way - live shows have continually been an afterthought.

And, I think we all agree that you can be a fan without ever going to a live venue featuring the artist. Why don't you dig up some statistics that show the Dan's total album sales compared to their contemporaries?
 
#89
#89
HotlantaVol said:
But, Hat, lower concert draws are due to the fact that they're first and foremost about making music in the studio. They've always been that way - live shows have continually been an afterthought.

And, I think we all agree that you can be a fan without ever going to a live venue featuring the artist. Why don't you dig up some statistics that show the Dan's total album sales compared to their contemporaries?
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It depends on who you consider their comtemporaries. If you compare them to Billy Joel, Bruce Springsteen, Eric Clapton, Elton John, Fleetwood Mac and a number of other acts who started their careers at roughly the same time, they do not come close to matching up.
 
#90
#90
hatvol96 said:
It depends on who you consider their comtemporaries. If you compare them to Billy Joel, Bruce Springsteen, Eric Clapton, Elton John, Fleetwood Mac and a number of other acts who started their careers at roughly the same time, they do not come close to matching up.
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I am compelled to agree with this if the criteria for matching up is how "major" an event would it be if they went on tour? Obviously, the mega-stars you mentioned above would play bigger venues and command higher prices.

Now, by no means would I sell the Dan short. Last year crowds of 10,000 plus were common place for them. They are, however, generally going to show up in smaller venues. Even the Hard Rock is only 3,000 seats (plus standing room). They did sell it out in ten minutes, though, so that's a plus for them.

But, of course how many tix you would sell now is not the be-all and end-all of the measure of a band's "greatness." You have to put it in context of what they are doing over the long haul. And while hat is absolutely correct that Steely Dan did not do anything for about 15 years (aside from various and sundry solo projects), that doesn't mean that on the whole their enormous repertoire of excellent music is lessened.

Steely Dan's recent tunes and albums are still the stuff of legend in musical circles. And I love the likes of "Cousin Dupree," "Pixeleen," "Gaslighting Abbey," and "Blues Beach." Nonetheless, those going to a Steely Dan show are, for the most part, thinking "Hey, don't they play that Rikki song?" Or, "Is Deacon Blues really about the Univeristy of Alabama because it refers to the Crimson Tide of UA as 'winners?'"

And that's okay. But their loyal fan base and high regard for their abilites in and among those who know more about music than "Is that in Dolby?" has to count for something.
 
#91
#91
hatvol96 said:
It depends on who you consider their comtemporaries. If you compare them to Billy Joel, Bruce Springsteen, Eric Clapton, Elton John, Fleetwood Mac and a number of other acts who started their careers at roughly the same time, they do not come close to matching up.
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OK, I found some statistics, from the love-to-hate'em RIAA:

Recording Industry Association of America

According to this, the Dan's cumulative album sales are approximately:

1/4 of Eric Clapton.
1/2 of the Police.
1/2 of the Doobie Brothers.
1/2 of Jay-Zs
On the same level as Stevie Ray Vaughn, Don Henley, Will Smith, Snoop Dogg, and Paul Simon.

For two guys who consistently avoided the limelight (see the article below), that ain't bad. They continue to leave their mark on American music, and they won't be fading into obscurity any time soon.

Bob Dylan Who's Who
 
#92
#92
HotlantaVol said:
OK, I found some statistics, from the love-to-hate'em RIAA:

Recording Industry Association of America

According to this, the Dan's cumulative album sales are approximately:

1/4 of Eric Clapton.
1/2 of the Police.
1/2 of the Doobie Brothers.
1/2 of Jay-Zs
On the same level as Stevie Ray Vaughn, Don Henley, Will Smith, Snoop Dogg, and Paul Simon.

For two guys who consistently avoided the limelight (see the article below), that ain't bad. They continue to leave their mark on American music, and they won't be fading into obscurity any time soon.

Bob Dylan Who's Who
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Hovah laying the smack down on the boys from Steely Done. Twice the album sales in about 1/3rd the time.
 
#93
#93
hatvol96 said:
Hovah laying the smack down on the boys from Steely Done. Twice the album sales in about 1/3rd the time.
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Brittney Spears probably has 'em all beat. You think she's better than the Police? Clapton? Doobie Brothers?

Surely having your music capture an audience is important and a legitimate measure of your "success," but it ain't the only one.

Word.
 
#94
#94
hatvol96 said:
Hovah laying the smack down on the boys from Steely Done. Twice the album sales in about 1/3rd the time.
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Yep, and Franzia probably sells a lot more wine than Château Mouton, but what would you prefer to drink?

Anyway, given the quality of their music, the quality of the featured studio artists, and the album sales *despite* lack of promotion and lack of touring, those guys are legends.
 
#95
#95
HotlantaVol said:
Yep, and Franzia probably sells a lot more wine than Château Mouton, but what would you prefer to drink?

Anyway, given the quality of their music, the quality of the featured studio artists, and the album sales *despite* lack of promotion and lack of touring, those guys are legends.
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1. Bad example. The wines you reference have very different price points. A Jay-Z CD is not appreciably more or less expensive than those of Steely Done. 2. They are legends in their own deluded, self important minds.
 
#96
#96
HotlantaVol said:
I'm 29. I better go knock out my real teef and get some dentures, then, so I can better appreciate the Dan.

Quit punching the tar-baby, Hat. You just brought a knife to a gun fight. :)
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Just who has the knife and who has the gun?That's the $100,000 question.
 
#97
#97
hatvol96 said:
1. Bad example. The wines you reference have very different price points. A Jay-Z CD is not appreciably more or less expensive than those of Steely Done. 2. They are legends in their own deluded, self important minds.
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We're now arguing two different points. You argue that the quality of an artist can be measured directly by their appeal to the masses.

I (and LG to an extent) are arguing that the quality of the artist has a lot more to do with the mastery of their craft. To that end, I submit that:

1.) The lushness of their harmonies, rhythms, and orchestration combined with...
2.) Melodies that are appealing to millions (given their record sales) plus...
3.) The technical abilities and musicianship of the musicians they record with

...yield a superior product.

Just like a strong knowledge of chemistry, climate, and geology produces good wines, so do the aforementioned items produce good music.
 
#98
#98
You guys are definatly just arguing opinion now. The only finite way of comparing two artists is by record sales.

Then when you argue with the numbers, then it is like when Wes Mantooth argued TV ratings when told he was, "Number two" by Ron Burgundy.
 
#99
#99
By the way, Stevie Ray would have produced more albums yielding more record sales had he not died prematurely. And I would argue that his music is better than Steely Dan.
 
#100
#100
UTLCA said:
You guys are definatly just arguing opinion now. The only finite way of comparing two artists is by record sales.

Then when you argue with the numbers, then it is like when Wes Mantooth argued TV ratings when told he was, "Number two" by Ron Burgundy.
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:lolabove: :lolabove:

Bring me back a Celine Dion T-shirt.
 
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