Von Pearson Update

[jlindsa4]

This is you: "I don't like what the stats say, so therefore I reject the stats."

And, by the way, should we blindly believe every rape accusation? That's what you suggest in the last sentence. I'd rather investigate and then draw conclusions, personally. Different strokes.

No, but I think if we go by what you say, we would never try athletes that were guilty of rape, letting them go free.

Also, your argument is flawed. You say that we cannot trust the numbers because we dont know the evidence, then, you use the numbers to make your point valid.

The problem with this is, not only is your rationale conflicting, and you are using this to suggest we shouldn't listen to victims of rape, especially if it is a player on our football team. The last bit is because we are all admittedly biased for wanting to see VP go free.

 

[jlindsa4]

If I was a prosecuting attorney...I'd most likely recuse myself. We believe our loved ones. I don't think he was proposing that rapes don't happen. They happen every hour and a large number of us (myself included) personally know a victim. I also have a niece who falsely accused my brother-in-law (her step-dad). Simple hard-working man went a year and a half not seeing his kids and not being able to live in his home. She's an intelligent sweet girl whose story completely fell apart when the judge stepped in. His marriage failed and he's building his life back as we speak. She's halfway through college with a goal of being a PA. No lesson...no real villain...just something wrong happened to a good man...enough of both sides shown there? :dunno:

No, I dont think he was suggesting that rapes dont happen, I think he is biasing his argument so that everyone should feel that VP is innocent and that the accusers are full of it.

 

[drylo]

No, but I think if we go by what you say, we would never try athletes that were guilty of rape, letting them go free.

Also, your argument is flawed. You say that we cannot trust the numbers because we dont know the evidence, then, you use the numbers to make your point valid.

The problem with this is, not only is your rationale conflicting, and you are using this to suggest we shouldn't listen to victims of rape, especially if it is a player on our football team. The last bit is because we are all admittedly biased for wanting to see VP go free.

None of my comments have anything to do with Von being a football player. In fact, I've already made that clear earlier in this thread and I resent the accusation.

And to be clear, I'm saying that we CAN "trust the numbers" when the numbers are objectively verifiable--like, for instance, the number of alleged rapes reported to police, or the number of rape convictions. These numbers are not controversial.

On the other hand, you're asking me to "trust the numbers" in the sense of believing (without any evidence) that every survey response is true and accurate.

 

[drylo]

Hmm, Drylo, you accuse Jlindsa of this:

And then you do this:

Pot, meet kettle.

Are you serious? Did you just not read my response to your post? The title of a chart is not a "statistic."

This conversation is seriously distressing. Please tell me you didn't graduate from UT.

 

[butchna]

No, I dont think he was suggesting that rapes dont happen, I think he is biasing his argument so that everyone should feel that VP is innocent and that the accusers are full of it.

I don't think he's innocent...I don't think he's guilty. Grade this one an incomplete until some FACTS are revealed. I'm confident most of us fall in line with this way of thinking.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Are you serious? Did you just not read my response to your post? The title of a chart is not a "statistic."

This conversation is seriously distressing. Please tell me you didn't graduate from UT.

No, I went to West Point, though I'm not sure why that's relevant to this discussion. So because it isn't statistical, the "fact" (your word) that all 100 cases are defined as rapes is not as significant? Pardon me if I'm having trouble understanding your logic. Please explain how it's less important because you do not interpret it as a statistic.

 

[KBVol]

No, I dont think he was suggesting that rapes dont happen, I think he is biasing his argument so that everyone should feel that VP is innocent and that the accusers are full of it.

I don't think that's what he has said at all. He's simply citing statistics. What you have to do is determine if the source of the statistics is valid.

You take all accusations of rape and sexual assault very seriously....you discover the facts and evidence and follow them where they lead you.....if the majority of accusations don't lead to charges or convictions then so be it....he's just citing the numbers. I don't believe he's saying rapes don't happen and your subjective opinion for what you think his motives are regarding Von seem way out of line to me.

 

[WilliamDuVOL]

Online would be an excellent option.
And I was speaking with both parties I mind. If complete innocent it probably wouldn't for Von to bump into his accuser.

Agreed. I considered both as well. Online classes are difficult sometimes, but I took them in college and actually benefitted from them. They teach you self management skills. In this case, they keep the accuser and accused separate.

 

[drylo]

No, I went to West Point, though I'm not sure why that's relevant to this discussion. So because it isn't statistical, the "fact" (your word) that all 100 cases are defined as rapes is not as significant? Pardon me if I'm having trouble understanding your logic. Please explain how it's less important because you do not interpret it as a statistic.

Dude, they are rape accusations, not necessarily rapes. This is clear if you take two seconds to interpret what you are reading. The chart is misleadingly labelled, and because you aren't even thinking about what you are looking at, you are accusing me of rejecting statistics. I am not.

 

[LA Vol]

Cool, we're playing make-believe.

[If you're gonna play make-believe, gotta live with other people playing make-believe too.]

Oh, lots of people play make-believe:

"No, NFL, we did not deflate those balls."

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."

Too bad people's noses don't grow.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Dude, they are rape accusations, not necessarily rapes. This is clear if you take two seconds to interpret what you are reading. The chart is misleadingly labelled, and because you aren't even thinking about what you are looking at, you are accusing me of rejecting statistics. I am not.

No, according to that site, they are all rapes. Not accusations. Actual rapes. I urge you to read the site again, there's no ambiguity in their intent.

But since you have now refused, twice, to get this point, I'll try a different approach. Let's use the reducto ad absurdum method.

• Of the 100 rapes (playing it your way, "alleged rapes"), 68 are never reported. Potentially, every one of them could be an actual rape, right? With 68% of women just too embarrassed or unwilling to run the gauntlet that comes with pursuing charges. Can you accept this outer limit, that all 68 could be real rapes that just aren't reported? Not that they are, just that they could be.
• Of the 32 reported rapes, in 25 cases the cops are never going to find the rapist. They try, but there just isn't enough identifying information or the woman recants on the story out of fear of reprisal, or for whatever reason. Reducto ad absurdum, all 25 of those cases could also be actual rapes, right? Theoretically speaking, they could all be.
• Of the final 7 cases, where the alleged rapist has been found and arrested, 4 cases are never going to get to a prosecutor. Evidence is too weak, guy denies everything, so the cops never forward it. Prosecutor is all over the police chief for "wasting his office's time and making his stats look bad," so the cases are dropped without being sent forward. Can you agree that this could potentially happen to this extreme limit? All four cases quite possibly real rapes, just not sent to the prosecutor because not clearly 'winnable'.
• So now the prosecutor has 3 cases, runs with all three, and wins 2. Two out of three ain't bad, right? In a court of law where things could go either way, winning more than you lose ain't bad, right? Heck, I'll even agree with you unequivocally on this point: The guy found innocent, he is truly innocent. Never happened. Justice prevailed.

But here's the point of the reducto argument: 99 of the 100 cases could be real rapes. It is entirely possible that they are almost all rapes.

You don't have to agree that they ARE all rapes. I certainly don't agree with that. But you do have to acknowledge, logically speaking, that 99 of the 100 could be real rapes.

Now, try your original argument using the statistics of this web site again. You'll discover how weak it is.

 

[jlindsa4]

No, according to that site, they are all rapes. Not accusations. Actual rapes. I urge you to read the site again, there's no ambiguity in their intent.

But since you have now refused, twice, to get this point, I'll try a different approach. Let's use the reducto ad absurdum method.

• Of the 100 rapes (playing it your way, "alleged rapes"), 68 are never reported. Potentially, every one of them could be an actual rape, right? With 68% of women just too embarrassed or unwilling to run the gauntlet that comes with pursuing charges. Can you accept this outer limit, that all 68 could be real rapes that just aren't reported? Not that they are, just that they could be.
• Of the 32 reported rapes, in 25 cases the cops are never going to find the rapist. They try, but there just isn't enough identifying information or the woman recants on the story out of fear of reprisal, or for whatever reason. Reducto ad absurdum, all 25 of those cases could also be actual rapes, right? Theoretically speaking, they could all be.
• Of the final 7 cases, where the alleged rapist has been found and arrested, 4 cases are never going to get to a prosecutor. Evidence is too weak, guy denies everything, so the cops never forward it. Prosecutor is all over the police chief for "wasting his office's time and making his stats look bad," so the cases are dropped without being sent forward. Can you agree that this could potentially happen to this extreme limit? All four cases quite possibly real rapes, just not sent to the prosecutor because not clearly 'winnable'.
• So now the prosecutor has 3 cases, runs with all three, and wins 2. Two out of three ain't bad, right? In a court of law where things could go either way, winning more than you lose ain't bad, right? Heck, I'll even agree with you unequivocally on this point: The guy found innocent, he is truly innocent. Never happened. Justice prevailed.

But here's the point of the reducto argument: 99 of the 100 cases could be real rapes. It is entirely possible that they are almost all rapes.

You don't have to agree that they ARE all rapes. I certainly don't agree with that. But you do have to acknowledge, logically speaking, that 99 of the 100 could be real rapes.

Now, try your original argument using the statistics of this web site again. You'll discover how weak it is.

I don't think this is getting to drylo

 

[drylo]

No, according to that site, they are all rapes. Not accusations. Actual rapes. I urge you to read the site again, there's no ambiguity in their intent.

But since you have now refused, twice, to get this point, I'll try a different approach. Let's use the reducto ad absurdum method.

• Of the 100 rapes (playing it your way, "alleged rapes"), 68 are never reported. Potentially, every one of them could be an actual rape, right? With 68% of women just too embarrassed or unwilling to run the gauntlet that comes with pursuing charges. Can you accept this outer limit, that all 68 could be real rapes that just aren't reported?
• Of the 32 reported rapes, in 25 cases the cops are never going to find the rapist. They try, but there just isn't enough identifying information or the woman recants on the story out of fear of reprisal, or for whatever reason. Reducto ad absurdum, all 25 of those cases could also be actual rapes, right? Theoretically speaking, they could all be.
• Of the final 7 cases, where the alleged rapist has been found and arrested, 4 cases are never going to get to a prosecutor. Evidence is too weak, guy denies everything, so the cops never forward it. Prosecutor is all over the police chief for "wasting his office's time and making his stats look bad," so the cases are dropped without being sent forward. Can you agree that this could potentially happen to this extreme limit? All four cases quite possibly real rapes, just not sent to the prosecutor because not clearly 'winnable'.
• So now the prosecutor has 3 cases, runs with all three, and wins 2. Two out of three ain't bad, right? In a court of law where things could go either way, winning more than you lose ain't bad, right? Heck, I'll even agree with you unequivocally on this point: The guy found innocent, he is truly innocent. Never happened. Justice prevailed.

But here's the point of the reducto argument: 99 of the 100 cases could be real rapes. It is entirely possible that they are almost all rapes.

You don't have to agree that they ARE all rapes. I certainly don't agree with that. But you do have to acknowledge, logically speaking, that 99 of the 100 could be real rapes.

Now, try your original argument using the statistics of this web site again. You'll discover how weak it is.

SMH. Of course it is theoretically possible that they are all real rapes, just like it is theoretically possible that none of them are (even the two convicted are wrongly convicted).

But I'm not sure what that has to do with my argument. Forget the 68 for a second--my main point is that when police investigate alleged rapes, they determine in over 90% of cases that the allegation is not credible enough to even prosecute (not to "convict" or "make it to trial," but to even try to get to trial).

 

[jlindsa4]

SMH. Of course it is theoretically possible that they are all real rapes, just like it is theoretically possible that none of them are (even the two convicted are wrongly convicted).

But I'm not sure what that has to do with my argument. Forget the 68 for a second--my main point is that when police investigate alleged rapes, they determine in over 90% of cases that the allegation is not credible enough to even prosecute (not to "convict" or "make it to trial," but to even try to get to trial).

They are real rapes

 

[drylo]

They are real rapes

LOL. This is like talking to a wall.

 

[crusse10]

Any philosophical discussion with you I regard under the auspice of your accusation of Jalen Hurd being a rude scuzzball...based on a young lady's account of his behavior during a stay at the hotel she worked at. You stated her version was fact with no room for discourse. Vol74 promptly discredited her story with facts that he had access to and made you eat your own butt in the process. If a friend of the family hadn't had facts about his itinerary, you'd probably still be railing false characterizations of him on here. But you're conveniently and (to our benefit ) silent on that false story. Now your backing of this young lady's accusations without any type of source isn't really an advantage. I consider her a possible rape victim and him a possible character assassination victim...let the justice system and evidence decide...you're not good at this. :hi:

You mean back when I got the story directly from a Vol Team girl? How dare I take information as credible directly from a source working with recruits. So yes, I took that information as factually accurate. I'm speaking of no factual accuracies or inaccuracies here. So you're more than welcome to bring up something that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever, if you'd like. It doesn't make it ok to railroad a person who may (or may not, as you struggle to understand how words work) have been raped.
A person I consider a friend told me something that eventually appeared to be factually inaccurate. You got me.

Also now that I reread what you said, you're wrong also. It was a Vol Team girl, not a hotel employee. But whatever. A credible source gave me false information.

 

[drylo]

They are real rapes

After conducting investigations, the police determine that the accusation isn't credible over 90% of the time. But you--with no knowledge of any of the facts--assure me that they are all real rapes. I'm awfully glad you're around to set things straight.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

SMH. Of course it is theoretically possible that they are all real rapes, just like it is theoretically possible that none of them are (even the two convicted are wrongly convicted).

But I'm not sure what that has to do with my argument. Forget the 68 for a second--my main point is that when police investigate alleged rapes, they determine in over 90% of cases that the allegation is not credible enough to even prosecute (not to "convict" or "make it to trial," but to even try to get to trial).

Thanks, Drylo. Okay, we're making progress.

Now, I just gotta convince you that you're using the wrong word: credible.

You and I have no idea how credible (or otherwise) those 32 cases were. All we can conclude from the information given on that chart is that 25 of the 32 were not deemed prosecutable. The police would not forward the cases to the prosecutor for any number of reasons, all of which fit in the category "not prosecutable." Some might've been entirely credible. But none were worthy of prosecuting, in the eyes of the police force involved. That's an entirely different animal.

Agreed?

 

[drylo]

A person I consider a friend told me something that eventually appeared to be factually inaccurate. You got me.

And this is why you can't just take every rape allegation at face value.

 

[drylo]

Thanks, Drylo. Okay, we're making progress.

Now, I just gotta convince you that you're using the wrong word: credible.

You and I have no idea how credible (or otherwise) those 32 cases are. All we can conclude from the information given on that chart is that 25 of the 32 were not deemed prosecutable. And that is an entirely different animal.

Agreed?

29 of the 32 were deemed not prosecutable. That is not an entirely different animal from saying "not credible." If they were credible, they would be prosecuted.

 

[crusse10]

And this is why you can't just take every rape allegation at face value.

Saying that a person went out and partied until the wee hours of the morning on a visit is not at all equivalent to claiming to be raped. Like at all.

 

[whobethis16]

While I don't hope anyone gets raped, I do hope that if that situation comes up to anyone's daughter, sister, etc that you present them with the "97% of rape accusations are false." Especially you, Drylo. Boy, I'd love to see your daughter lose all faith and love for you if she ever called you from college crying that she was raped, and you tell her that she doesn't remember the circumstances and that she is lying.

 

[drylo]

Saying that a person went out and partied until the wee hours of the morning on a visit is not at all equivalent to claiming to be raped. Like at all.

I'm not saying it is. Just saying that the fact that even a "friend" gave you information that turned out to be inaccurate is just one example of why you can't believe everything you hear.

 

[crusse10]

What about meals, tutors, full access to gym/exercise/conditioning facilities, nutritionists, doctors and medical-- things someone relies on, needs and is suddenly without.

But I'm talking big picture. Would you be good with your company suspending you indefinitely and your co-workers, colleagues, friends and the media labeling you an alleged rapist because you were accused of rape without any evidence to support the claim? Simple question. Yes or no?

Unless something happened that I didn't notice, Von Pearson is still a student, still on scholarship, he has access to PAID-FOR meals (if he lives on campus, of which I'm not sure), a gym, doctors, and medical. All of that comes with being a student. So...yeah

 

[drylo]

While I don't hope anyone gets raped, I do hope that if that situation comes up to anyone's daughter, sister, etc that you present them with the "97% of rape accusations are false." Especially you, Drylo. Boy, I'd love to see your daughter lose all faith and love for you if she ever called you from college crying that she was raped, and you tell her that she doesn't didn't remember the circumstances and that she is lying.

I don't have to tell my daughter she's lying. I can believe my daughter and fight for her, up until the point that she is discredited. But all I ask of the police and general public is that they do their best to investigate and attempt to find the truth.