Volunteers Not As Young As Sneaky Coach Jones Would Have You Think

[VolFan4Life87]

The thing is, the freshmen and sophomores of this team are better than the folks signed in the 2011-12 classes. That says a lot

 

[VOLINVONORE]

Mosley is, as far as I remember, the only redshirt freshman (NEXT year redshirt freshman) who got a ton of talk in the two-deep. It was mostly true freshmen, like Richmond, McKenzie, Tuttle, Jones, Williams, one of the QBs, etc.

And if you think about it, that makes sense...many of 2014's freshmen (who would potentially become 2015's RS freshman) actually didn't redshirt because they were out on the field playing. I mean, just think about all of them: Kelly, Moseley, Berry 1, Berry 2, Barnett, Mixon, Johnson, Medley, Bates, Hurd, Wolf, Malone, on and on.

So redshirt freshmen or not, it's kinda the same point. Consensus pointing to somewhere between 5 and 8 being in the two-deep at the start of the season.

As I said, you are more than welcome to join the debate over there to make your case in favor of 15.

Jennings, Mosley, Bates, Williams, Tuttle, McKinziey Bryant, Kirkland, Creamer, Thomas, Gaulden, Phillips, Jones, Townsend, Butcher, Richmond. More if there are a few injuries .

 

[UTwild82]

Good post, OP. I thought it was eye opening in regards to the amount of experience we have coming back.

Some posters are going to nit pick your post, but don't hold your breath on them putting in the time you did to create their rebuttal.

 

[white65]

Our upper class men aren't that talented. So this dumb thread is dumb!!!

 

[TVOL71]

While the O-line technically has 3 seniors, they all only have one year of starting experience, so they are closer to sophomores in experience. The lack of experienced depth throughout was very obvious by the end of last year, and while it will be improved this year, it still isn't where it needs to be. And I hope Dobbs stays healthy, otherwise we will be starting a freshman QB, not a good thing in the SEC. I am looking for 8 or 9 regular season wins this coming year, but in 2016 they should be great.

 

[triad280]

its way too early to predict a 2 deep at this point... as pointed out earlier,Tuttle,McKenzie,Richmond,Phillips,etc. might be day 1 starters or may be redshirted for various reasons... we know Dobbs,Hurd,JRM,Cam,etc. pretty much have their spots locked up,but if you are weighing someone like Dobbs,who is a Jr, but he has less starts and playing time than Hurd and Barnett because of Worley only playing 1/2 a season the last 2 years and CBJ wanting to redshirt him...

you can lay out the 2 deep,but experience and talent are bigger factors than how many years you have been on campus...3 years in the program will be more beneficial physically than a true Freshman walking onto campus 2 months before opening day,but the better football player will be in the 2 deep,and it may be a freshman...

 

[GAVol]

My Lord, do you guys ever do anything but ***** and moan? I swear, with a few exceptions (thanks, jnunn, casetopia, triadvolfan for being normal human beings), all you guys do is nit pick and back seat drive. I guess that shows me, taking the time to put some data together that says good things about our chances this year. You guys just chap my butt.

[said with a little bit of blue font, and a little bit not].

GET THE F OFF MY LAWN!

I'm just thinking out loud. For instance, Dobbs shows 2 year's experience when in reality he's probably taken about a third of the snaps the past two years.

Clearly the experience gap has closed significantly but it's still there to a lesser degree.

 

[Nocleats]

Speed, or the lack of it in the 2011, 12, and even 13 was what I found most glaring early on, add to that Tennessee's almost non existent weight training program. )when true freshmen come in and immediately are the strongest on your team that's a problem) and it showed up more than I can ever remember against Arkansas, Oregon, and even Vanderbilt in 2012. Some of Tennessee's Srs and graduated Srs of last year would have never been given an offer by CBJ. Still think it all points to 2016 before the numbers are aligned like it should be, but they are improving.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Using this particular strawman, they don't begin the year in the two-deep. You could certainly argue for both of them, they're both studs. But I didn't want to make another two-deep discussion thread, so just went with what seemed to be a consensus of sorts among all the posts on the thread I quoted above.

Cheers, thanks for the note!

so the consensus was that our freshmen all-sec starting RG from last year and the #1 recruit in the country for 2015 won't be in the two-deep for next year?

if that was the "consensus", you shoulda known better that it was unrealistic. i think you just picked names to fit your argument.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Our upper class men aren't that talented. So this dumb thread is dumb!!!

exactly. if we had alabama's roster, then this thread might make some sense.

as of right now, its a waste of time to talk about who will be in the 2 deep. for all we know the freshmen in this class are much more talented than some of the stop gap talent we've had to play from the Dooley era.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

There is virtually zero chance barring extraordinary injuries that 15 true or RS Fr find their way into the two deep this fall. Returning roughly 39 of the two deep from last fall. UT is no longer in a position to depend on Fr to fill out their 2 deep. Any Fr who earns a spot in the rotation... will be an extraordinary player who beat out an SEC caliber player.

or he could be just beating out one of Dooley's not so great recruits. our roster ain't Alabama's man. if a freshmen cracks the lineup, it doesn't neccesarily mean he beat out an SEC caliber player. he mighta just beat out a dude who was holding the spot cause we couldn't find anyone better to replace em with.

 

[smokey0625]

I have done my own research. One, I hate the off season. Two, does anybody identify with me in that volnation is a bit depressing over the past two weeks. No news just ***** ing. Three, op good job but please watch reruns of old games cause I'm tired of reading something that doesn't matter.

 

[white65]

or he could be just beating out one of Dooley's not so great recruits. our roster ain't Alabama's man. if a freshmen cracks the lineup, it doesn't neccesarily mean he beat out an SEC caliber player. he mighta just beat out a dude who was holding the spot cause we couldn't find anyone better to replace em with.

I'm worried that Tuttle and McKenzie are gonna get thrown into the fire too soon. Now that sawyers is gone we've only got 4 DTs. Maybe 5 if Mixon can bulk up. But O'Brien played good last year on alot of snaps maybe with some help he can anchor a spot.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I'm worried that Tuttle and McKenzie are gonna get thrown into the fire too soon. Now that sawyers is gone we've only got 4 DTs. Maybe 5 if Mixon can bulk up. But O'Brien played good last year on alot of snaps maybe with some help he can anchor a spot.

why would that worry you? Barnett started from day 1 last year and was arguably the best defensive lineman in the SEC. The cream always rises to the top. If Tuttle and McKenzie are players they'll shine, if not they'll sink. I'm not one of these guys that thinks young players should be coddled. Put the guys out there and lets see if they can play or not.

Both Tuttle and McKenzie are already bigger than any DTs we had last year so physical size shouldn't be an issue.

 

[GLDunlap]

I'm worried that Tuttle and McKenzie are gonna get thrown into the fire too soon. Now that sawyers is gone we've only got 4 DTs. Maybe 5 if Mixon can bulk up. But O'Brien played good last year on alot of snaps maybe with some help he can anchor a spot.

Is Charles Mosely moving to offense for sure? I see he's still listed as DL on the winter roster but that probably doesn't mean anything. It will help if Saulsberry is healthy enough to get a few snaps per game. I think the staff had every intention of moving Hendrix to DT this year. Would not be surprised if Mosely stayed on defense especially after getting Richmond.

 

[GLDunlap]

why would that worry you? Barnett started from day 1 last year and was arguably the best defensive lineman in the SEC. The cream always rises to the top. If Tuttle and McKenzie are players they'll shine, if not they'll sink. I'm not one of these guys that thinks young players should be coddled. Put the guys out there and lets see if they can play or not.

Both Tuttle and McKenzie are already bigger than any DTs we had last year so physical size shouldn't be an issue.

Size wouldn't be the problem it's technique and conditioning. Defensive tackle is the hardest position there is for a Freshman to play. They will both have to play this season though.

 

[BookVol]

Size wouldn't be the problem it's technique and conditioning. Defensive tackle is the hardest position there is for a Freshman to play. They will both have to play this season though.

Defensive tackle is NOT the hardest position there is for a freshman to play.

That would be offensive line, especially tackle.

Which is why if Drew Richmond can secure a starting spot there you know he is going to be good.

 

[GLDunlap]

Defensive tackle is NOT the hardest position there is for a freshman to play.

That would be offensive line, especially tackle.

Which is why if Drew Richmond can secure a starting spot there you know he is going to be good.

Maybe I should have said OT and DT are the two toughest positions for a true Freshman of course then I'm sure someone would quote me and say it was quarterback and they may be right. My point was DT is tougher then DE for a true Freshman to make an impact.

I can't ever remember a true Freshman DT starting for us even through all our lean years at the position. Maybe there's been one but I can't think of one.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Two deeps in February are premature. Granted. But, guys and gals, it's February. Freaking February. And you're reading this, and I'm writing it. College football blogs in February are all about taking a four-month sport and spreading it across the entire 12-month calendar. So if you're one of the folks who said this is all meaningless, congratulations, you're right, and now chuckle at yourself because you're still here. With the rest of us. Talking about football. In February.

This next point, however, I can not agree with:

Our upper class men aren't that talented. So this dumb thread is dumb!!!

So you say stop when we get to the "untalented" part of our upperclassmen. Ready? Here goes: Chris Weatherd ... Pig Howard ... Brian Randolph ... Curt Maggit ... Mark Crowder ... Von Pearson ... Have we gotten there yet? That's a six-pack of seniors who are legitimate starters, not just in Knoxville but at any school in the country. Okay, I'll keep going, with the juniors: Malik Foreman ... Cameron Sutton .. Corey Vereen ... Jalen Reeves-Maybin ... Josh Dobbs ... Marquez North ... Josh Smith ... Michael Williams ... Jason Croom ... still not there? Another nine upperclassmen who are legitimate SEC-level talent.

Okay, maybe giving three full years of experience 'credit' to a senior offensive lineman who hasn't played that much is not precise. Maybe a JUCO shouldn't get full credit for two years experience at a lesser school. I can absolutely understand those points. In my defense, I can only say that I didn't give those numbers in any attempt to mislead ... I'm just too lazy to parse what "senior" or "junior" or "sophomore" really means, person by person, across the 88 names of two teams' strawman two-deeps. Heck, I'm already doing far more work than my lazy bones want me to do, I'm not going to triple the workload just for the sake of fine tuning something no one but fellow February nuts are going to read.

But when I can rattle off fifteen upperclassmen who are household names in Vol Nation because of what they've done for the team in the past 2-3 years, who all are absolutely worthy of being in any two-deep you want to draw up ... it just flies in the face of common sense to say our upper classes aren't that talented.

If you disagree, put together your own strawman two-deep. Count the experience yourself. Come up with your own comparison to Georgia, or to any other team you like.

I think you're going to find that there's not much difference in talented, experienced depth. The last few years, yes. But not any more.

We're back.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I'm just thinking out loud. For instance, Dobbs shows 2 year's experience when in reality he's probably taken about a third of the snaps the past two years.

Clearly the experience gap has closed significantly but it's still there to a lesser degree.

Yes, but I think you're a 'victim' of your great familiarity with the Vols. What do I mean? Just this: I think a Georgia fan looking at the strawman two-deep I got from bleacherreport would say, "oh, but Jimmy-Joe, he's a senior, but he's been rusting on the sidelines most of the last three years behind Billy-Bob, he doesn't have three years experience, three games maybe!"

It's a fact of life on sports teams. Some kids are so talented that they walk on campus and start their very first game. By the time they graduate, they've played in 40, 45, 50 games. But that's not (usually) the experience of the majority. They redshirt a year, and spend a year on special teams, and then a year in and out of the two-deep, and then when they are juniors they play in every game of the season for the first time.

In other words, there are a TON of exceptions to any rule as simplistic as senior = 3, junior = 2, etc. On every team. You're a Vols fan, so you see the discrepancies on a Vols roster. A Georgia fan wouldn't...but would definitely see them on a Georgia roster.

It cuts both ways.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

So you say stop when we get to the "untalented" part of our upperclassmen. Ready? Here goes: Chris Weatherd ... Pig Howard ... Brian Randolph ... Curt Maggit ... Mark Crowder ... Von Pearson ... Have we gotten there yet? That's a six-pack of seniors who are legitimate starters, not just in Knoxville but at any school in the country. Okay, I'll keep going, with the juniors: Malik Foreman ... Cameron Sutton .. Corey Vereen ... Jalen Reeves-Maybin ... Josh Dobbs ... Marquez North ... Josh Smith ... Michael Williams ... Jason Croom .. Todd Kelly, Jr. ... still not there? Another ten upperclassmen who are legitimate SEC-level talent.

first of all, Todd Kelly Jr. will be a sophomore next year not a junior. BUT more importantly, all the guys I bolded have a good chance of getting passed up by underclassmen. I wouldn't pencil any of them as having secured a heavy amount of snaps. I would argue that there are more talented players behind them more worthy of snaps.

yes we have some talented upperclassmen, but whether you like it or not the CORE of our team next year will be sophomores and freshmen. that's who will make up the backbone of our success. the upperclassmen will be critical but they simply won't be as numerous as the underclassmen.

and I have no idea why you are obsessed with trying to prove Tennessee has quality experienced depth. WHO CARES? you win games in this sport based on TALENT. and guess what? Tennessee has the TALENT to hang with anyone in the country next year. primarily because of our last 2 recruiting classes. you don't need to create this faux scenario that we have all this quality depth for us to be contenders next year. there is nothing wrong with sophomores leading your team. Ohio State proved that this year winning the national title with most of their key players being sophomores and with seniors/juniors being nothing more than complimentary pieces.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

first of all, Todd Kelly Jr. will be a sophomore next year not a junior. and more importantly, all the guys I bolded have a good chance of getting passed up by underclassmen. I wouldn't pencil any of them as having secured a heavy amount of snaps. I would argue that there are more talented players behind them more worthy of snaps.

yes we have some talented upperclassmen. but whether you like it or not the CORE of our team (if we are to be successful next year) will be sophomores and freshmen. that's who will make up the backbone of our success. the upperclassmen will be critical but they won't be as numerous as the underclassmen.

and there is nothing wrong with sophomores leading your team. Ohio State proved that this year winning the national title with most of their key players being sophomores and with seniors/juniors being nothing more than complimentary pieces.

Yeah, my bad on Kelly, my eye went one spot too far down the roster.

As for the rest, I don't know. Certainly spring camp, the players' work ethic through the summer, and fall practices will shake it all out for us, but I don't see the chance of those guys being passed up by underclassmen as likely as you do.

Yep, we're young. Not disagreeing at all. Perhaps the real point to the Vols-Ga comparison above is that other teams out there, the teams we're so worried about being so much older and more experienced than our guys...they're young, too. The idea of 44 redshirt seniors filling a two-deep roster is ludicrous, of course, but maybe we've all overestimated what an "average" or "steady state" good SEC team looks like. Maybe having half your two-deep be sophomores and talented freshman isn't far off of the norm in today's game. Ohio State sure made a case for that. Maybe Georgia's roster is saying the same thing.

Either way, the Vols seem to be back up to snuff by these measurements.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

[added rant] and I have no idea why you are obsessed with trying to prove Tennessee has quality experienced depth. WHO CARES? you win games in this sport based on TALENT. and guess what? Tennessee has the TALENT to hang with anyone in the country next year. primarily because of our last 2 recruiting classes. you don't need to create this faux scenario that we have all this quality depth for us to be contenders next year. [end of added rant]

Boy, your initial response seemed really well reasoned. Why'd you feel the need to come back and add the rant? For the record, I'm not obsessed -- well, no more than anyone is who comes to a forum to talk about football in February with other obsessed people, heh. You can't separate talent, experience, and depth when talking about whether a football team can compete. Peyton Manning = talent, but he might get injured and could use a good backup. That = depth. And as good as Jalen Hurd was last year, as talented as the young man was, that's nothing to how good he's going to be by the time he's a junior. That = experience. It all goes together, and it's all important. But thanks for the rant.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Boy, your initial response seemed really well reasoned. Why'd you feel the need to come back and add the rant? For the record, I'm not obsessed -- well, no more than anyone is who comes to a forum to talk about football in February with other obsessed people, heh. You can't separate talent, experience, and depth when talking about whether a football team can compete. Peyton Manning = talent, but he might get injured and could use a good backup. That = depth. And as good as Jalen Hurd was last year, as talented as the young man was, that's nothing to how good he's going to be by the time he's a junior. That = experience. It all goes together, and it's all important. But thanks for the rant.

you call it a rant. I call it expanding on my earlier argument. my point is simple. TALENT wins championships not experience. just look at the last 2 national champs. they were led by a redshirt freshmen (in Jameis Winston) and a true sophomore (in Ezekeil Elliot). yes both teams had key seniors. but the foundational pieces were young underclassmen. the idea that redshirt seniors and juniors are leading teams to national titles is pure fantasy. if those guys were any good, they'd already be in the NFL (see Amari Cooper, TJ Yeldon, and Landon Collins).

the seniors and redshirt juniors that are still hanging around are in most cases not as talented as the redshirt freshmen or sophomores that will leave early for the NFL. yes talented experience is always preferred but the best players win you game. and the way the game is going right now, the most talented players in college football are redshirt/true freshmen and sophmores.

 

[white65]

Two deeps in February are premature. Granted. But, guys and gals, it's February. Freaking February. And you're reading this, and I'm writing it. College football blogs in February are all about taking a four-month sport and spreading it across the entire 12-month calendar. So if you're one of the folks who said this is all meaningless, congratulations, you're right, and now chuckle at yourself because you're still here. With the rest of us. Talking about football. In February.

This next point, however, I can not agree with:


So you say stop when we get to the "untalented" part of our upperclassmen. Ready? Here goes: Chris Weatherd ... Pig Howard ... Brian Randolph ... Curt Maggit ... Mark Crowder ... Von Pearson ... Have we gotten there yet? That's a six-pack of seniors who are legitimate starters, not just in Knoxville but at any school in the country. Okay, I'll keep going, with the juniors: Malik Foreman ... Cameron Sutton .. Corey Vereen ... Jalen Reeves-Maybin ... Josh Dobbs ... Marquez North ... Josh Smith ... Michael Williams ... Jason Croom ... still not there? Another nine upperclassmen who are legitimate SEC-level talent.

Okay, maybe giving three full years of experience 'credit' to a senior offensive lineman who hasn't played that much is not precise. Maybe a JUCO shouldn't get full credit for two years experience at a lesser school. I can absolutely understand those points. In my defense, I can only say that I didn't give those numbers in any attempt to mislead ... I'm just too lazy to parse what "senior" or "junior" or "sophomore" really means, person by person, across the 88 names of two teams' strawman two-deeps. Heck, I'm already doing far more work than my lazy bones want me to do, I'm not going to triple the workload just for the sake of fine tuning something no one but fellow February nuts are going to read.

But when I can rattle off fifteen upperclassmen who are household names in Vol Nation because of what they've done for the team in the past 2-3 years, who all are absolutely worthy of being in any two-deep you want to draw up ... it just flies in the face of common sense to say our upper classes aren't that talented.

If you disagree, put together your own strawman two-deep. Count the experience yourself. Come up with your own comparison to Georgia, or to any other team you like.

I think you're going to find that there's not much difference in talented, experienced depth. The last few years, yes. But not any more.

We're back.

So you counted 15 players out of 2 classes? We should have 35-40 talented upper classmen(Taking attrition into account). Give it some time before you compare the state of our program to UGA. After Butch has had 4 full recruiting classes then we can have this argument.