Utah State

#426
#426
volfan_89 said:
Show me how they are similar.
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UT and Bama both had talent advantages. UT's was more significant than Bama's based on "objective" data like (yes) recruiting rankings AND NFL potential... and size, speed, strength, athleticism, etc.

Saban and Jones were both outcoached. Saban and Stoops had equal time to prepare for each other's teams. Jones had two weeks to prepare for Franklin's team... and played them at home.

OU's QB was a redshirt freshman who sat out '12 and started this year but was injured. And stoops has the players in place to run his system as he has been there for about 14 yrs. Stoops had about 1 month to prep Knight for that game. Also they started 2 srs and 1 sop at WR.
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And after all that... Jones had sufficient time to prepare his more talented team to beat Vandy at home. He had the spring, August, and 10 games to coach the team up. You point to time and all. That does matter. But not enough to excuse the loss to Vandy.

Butch had 2 weeks to prep an 18 true freshman QB for vandy. Butch is in his first year at UT and is starting to get players for his system here. Also at WR we started 1 fr, 1 rs fr and 1 sop.

Most people would admitted those to things aren't comparable other then the fact that both Stoops and Jones are the head coaches at their respective schools.
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Stoops thumped Saban pretty good in spite of a talent deficit. Jones wasn't competitive... at any point after the opening kick off.

Stoops beat Saban. Jones couldn't beat Franklin. More of a contrast I suppose than a comparison.
 
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#427
#427
sjt18 said:
I would say that Saban has a bad game once in awhile. I would have to look but he may have never been beaten by 28+ points since coming to the SEC much less 4 times in the same season. Saban has a bad game once in awhile and routinely has very good ones against the best teams he faces. Jones had two good games this year couple with six bad games. So yes. I would accept your comparison with consideration to the frequency a coach has a bad game.

So above you at least agree that UT has more talent than Vandy? That's progress I suppose.



Agree totally. I hold out hope that what we saw this year was not the "true" Jones when it comes to developing and coaching his team. They were not consistently competitive, they underachieved the talent, and whatever progressive development occurred was not apparent on the field.

Great coaches show it early and often. Many here love to point to Saban's first year at Bama as some kind of proof that its OK to have a loss to a lesser team or have a bad record in year one. The problem with that reasoning that is so often ignored is that Bama didn't lose a single one of those 6 games that year by more than 7 points. He proved that even under bad circumstances he could get a team prepared to compete with all comers. Both the record and competitiveness improved over Shula's last year even as Saban had to clean house and rid the program of bad characters, those who didn't buy in, and underachievers. Their average margin of loss that year was 2.75 pts... not even a FG.

Jones' avg margin of loss was 24! Half that would have been more difficult to argue against. For reference, Dooley's avg loss margin in year one was 18 pts. Year two was 19. Year 3 was 13. The first two years were comparable in difficulty to what Jones faced this year and MORE dependent on young or untalented players.

Both coaches had roster issues. Both coaches faced tough schedules though UT's was in fact more difficult (but not enough to explain a 21 pt difference in loss margin). Both coaches replaced fired coaches who left problems in their wake. One coach immediately made his team competitive and poised to take a big step forward the next year. The other coach... left HUGE questions about his staff's ability to compete in the SEC.
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Had Saban played the same schedule in his first year as Jones did the results would been about the same.

Plus Jones in his first year managed to do something that Saban didn't this year and that is beat a top 10 team. That had we not beat might have been playing in the NCAA championship game.
 
#428
#428
sjt18 said:
UT and Bama both had talent advantages. UT's was more significant than Bama's based on "objective" data like (yes) recruiting rankings AND NFL potential... and size, speed, strength, athleticism, etc.

Saban and Jones were both outcoached. Saban and Stoops had equal time to prepare for each other's teams. Jones had two weeks to prepare for Franklin's team... and played them at home.

And after all that... Jones had sufficient time to prepare his more talented team to beat Vandy at home. He had the spring, August, and 10 games to coach the team up. You point to time and all. That does matter. But not enough to excuse the loss to Vandy.

Butch had 2 weeks to prep an 18 true freshman QB for vandy. Butch is in his first year at UT and is starting to get players for his system here. Also at WR we started 1 fr, 1 rs fr and 1 sop.

Stoops thumped Saban pretty good in spite of a talent deficit. Jones wasn't competitive... at any point after the opening kick off.

Stoops beat Saban. Jones couldn't beat Franklin. More of a contrast I suppose than a comparison.
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Jones has beaten franklin at UC with less talent than what UT has. He can beat and will beat franklin if he stays at vandy. The coaching may not have been the best in that game but the circumstances in that game effected the play calling in that game.
 
#429
#429
volfan_89 said:
Had Saban played the same schedule in his first year as Jones did the results would been about the same.

Plus Jones in his first year managed to do something that Saban didn't this year and that is beat a top 10 team. That had we not beat might have been playing in the NCAA championship game.
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-So if Butch wins 7-8 this season, you'll use this SHEER VOLUMEof words to praise him...right?
 
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#431
#431
volfan_89 said:
Had Saban played the same schedule in his first year as Jones did the results would been about the same.
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Conclusive statements about hypothetical situations? That's not a good argument.

I strongly suspect you are 100% wrong. But we'll never know.

Plus Jones in his first year managed to do something that Saban didn't this year and that is beat a top 10 team. That had we not beat might have been playing in the NCAA championship game.
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USCe was not going to beat Auburn or Bama this year. Part of their success was having one of the weaker schedules in the SECE in conference.

Saban had already beaten many ranked teams and won a NC. He hardly needed a win over a ranked opponent to give himself credibility.

As far as I know, USCe was the very first ranked opponent Jones has ever beaten.

Again, Saban didn't have 6 or 7 poor efforts that year either.
 
#432
#432
volfan_89 said:
Jones has beaten franklin at UC with less talent than what UT has.
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Which begs the question even more of why he couldn't beat him this year or recognize that he had the better roster. I am actually pleased to see you admit that about UT's talent.

He can beat and will beat franklin if he stays at vandy. The coaching may not have been the best in that game but the circumstances in that game effected the play calling in that game.
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So did the strategy and lack of player development. Personnel decisions over the course of the year played into it as well.

We're talking "on the margin" here which is the wrong place to be talking. You are trying to prove that what Jones did was "meets expectations". Even if you are right... you are wrong. An "average", "meets expectations" coach is not good enough to lift UT up into SEC contention. It makes them Ole Miss, MSU, or what Vandy currently is... a 2nd tier team.

Maybe that's all you expect. Maybe that's our disconnect. I'm not looking for a "good" coach. I am looking for an elite coach. I'm not looking for a nice trip to the Chick-fil-A Bowl in a good year. I'm looking for SEC championships and to be in the NC conversation. Maybe you think being an also ran is a high enough goal?
 
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#433
#433
volfan_89 said:
Jones has beaten franklin at UC with less talent than what UT has. He can beat and will beat franklin if he stays at vandy. The coaching may not have been the best in that game but the circumstances in that game effected the play calling in that game.
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But he didn't beat Franklin when it mattered at UT.

You guys speak in dreams and wishes. You talk about what you THINK he is going to do. Some of us actually speak about what he has done. That is proof, not dreams.
 
#434
#434
sjt18 said:
Which begs the question even more of why he couldn't beat him this year or recognize that he had the better roster. I am actually pleased to see you admit that about UT's talent.



So did the strategy and lack of player development. Personnel decisions over the course of the year played into it as well.

We're talking "on the margin" here which is the wrong place to be talking. You are trying to prove that what Jones did was "meets expectations". Even if you are right... you are wrong. An "average", "meets expectations" coach is not good enough to lift UT up into SEC contention. It makes them Ole Miss, MSU, or what Vandy currently is... a 2nd tier team.

Maybe that's all you expect. Maybe that's our disconnect. I'm not looking for a "good" coach. I am looking for an elite coach. I'm not looking for a nice trip to the Chick-fil-A Bowl in a good year. I'm looking for SEC championships and to be in the NC conversation. Maybe you think being an also ran is a high enough goal?
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Right now I would love to be having 8/9 plus wins a season. By your standards Fulmer wasn't a great/elite coach outside of a few seasons. And the expectations placed on this season was to high. At best we were a six win team and that was before auburn and mizzou had outstanding years. Jones won a game he wasn't supposed to and lost a game he wasn't supposed to. Just because we expect 10 win seasons doesn't mean they are going to magically happen over night.
 
#435
#435
Wylo said:
But he didn't beat Franklin when it mattered at UT.

You guys speak in dreams and wishes. You talk about what you THINK he is going to do. Some of us actually speak about what he has done. That is proof, not dreams.
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So what about what he did do as in beat a top 10 team? If gave jones credit for that we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
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#436
#436
Beat a top 10 team with walk ons. When is the last time we beat a top 10 team?

CBJ is the real deal.
 
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#437
#437
sjt18 said:
Conclusive statements about hypothetical situations? That's not a good argument.

I strongly suspect you are 100% wrong. But we'll never know.



USCe was not going to beat Auburn or Bama this year.
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So I can't use hypothetical arguments but you can? His do you know USCe wouldn't beat auburn or bama since they didn't play each other?

Most people would say OU would not beat bama but it happened.
 
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#438
#438
volfan_89 said:
So I can't use hypothetical arguments but you can? His do you know USCe wouldn't beat auburn or bama since they didn't play each other?
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OK. That's fair. It is VERY unlikely that USCe would have beaten either one of those teams because they weren't nearly as talented. How's that??

Most people would say OU would not beat bama but it happened.
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Yes. The top tier coaches do that. They seldom if ever get blown out even when they have less talent and never 4 times in one season. They seldom lose to less talented teams. They very, very rarely have mid-majors take them to the wire or beat them.
 
#439
#439
tim said:
Beat a top 10 team with walk ons. When is the last time we beat a top 10 team?

CBJ is the real deal.
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You are WAY overplaying that "walk on" thing. UT's nickel backs were walk ons. Both beat out scholarship players for PT.

Mizzou btw had a starting S who was a former walk on and an OL iirc. They didn't just beat a top 10 team... they're going to finish ranked in the top 10. And lo and behold, their coach demonstrated what it looks like when a coach gets something greater than the sum of a team's talent out of a roster.
 
#441
#441
volfan_89 said:
Right now I would love to be having 8/9 plus wins a season.
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As would I but that's not the ultimate goal. You seem like you'd be satisfied with nothing more.

By your standards Fulmer wasn't a great/elite coach outside of a few seasons.
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He wasn't. Fulmer had two careers at UT. One began in 93 when he was hungry and had a great staff around him. That ended with his second SEC championship in 99. His second career saw him get complacent, entitled, and slack. He declined and was thoroughly owned by the elite coaches he faced like Saban and Meyer.

You could argue he was never really elite from the way he was owned by Spurrier even during his heyday.

And the expectations placed on this season was to high. At best we were a six win team and that was before auburn and mizzou had outstanding years.
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That is simply untrue. Auburn didn't just appear. Those of us who actually looked at the talent Malzahn inherited expected them to be one of the tougher opponents... by the same reasoning we knew USCe was vulnerable.

Jones won a game he wasn't supposed to and lost a game he wasn't supposed to. Just because we expect 10 win seasons doesn't mean they are going to magically happen over night.
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Why do you keep up with this type of dishonest statement? Who has suggested that it should happen overnight? Anyone? I want to see signs he's a top shelf coach. The actual results of '13 suggests he's not. If you want to convince yourself that isn't true then you are free to be as deluded as you want.
 
#442
#442
sjt18 said:
OK. That's fair. It is VERY unlikely that USCe would have beaten either one of those teams because they weren't nearly as talented. How's that??



Yes. The top tier coaches do that. They seldom if ever get blown out even when they have less talent and never 4 times in one season. They seldom lose to less talented teams. They very, very rarely have mid-majors take them to the wire or beat them.
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Better on your first point. To your second point top teir coaches are usually long tenured coaches and have been consistently recruiting players to fit their system which leads to them usually never getting blown out and almost never losing to a lesser talented team.
 
#444
#444
sjt18 said:
As would I but that's not the ultimate goal. You seem like you'd be satisfied with nothing more.

He wasn't. Fulmer had two careers at UT. One began in 93 when he was hungry and had a great staff around him. That ended with his second SEC championship in 99. His second career saw him get complacent, entitled, and slack. He declined and was thoroughly owned by the elite coaches he faced like Saban and Meyer.

You could argue he was never really elite from the way he was owned by Spurrier even during his heyday.

That is simply untrue. Auburn didn't just appear. Those of us who actually looked at the talent Malzahn inherited expected them to be one of the tougher opponents... by the same reasoning we knew USCe was vulnerable.



Why do you keep up with this type of dishonest statement? Who has suggested that it should happen overnight? Anyone? I want to see signs he's a top shelf coach. The actual results of '13 suggests he's not. If you want to convince yourself that isn't true then you are free to be as deluded as you want.
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My point on the last part is that you seem to have very lofty expectations for UT. When we where our best the rest of the sec was bad. We may never reach level again. And I would be happy consistantly winning 10 games a season with an occasional down year of 8 wins.
 
#445
#445
sjt18 said:
Why do you keep up with this type of dishonest statement? Who has suggested that it should happen overnight? Anyone? I want to see signs he's a top shelf coach. The actual results of '13 suggests he's not. If you want to convince yourself that isn't true then you are free to be as deluded as you want.
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The results from '13 don't suggest any other then Jones can beat a team that is better and has more talent then us and can also under the circumstances of losing our best WR and playing a true freshman QB that might have had some type of hand injury lose to a team with less talent.
 
#446
#446
When Butch and his coaches dont have to rely on walk ons we will return to winning. Butch showed he is an elite gameday coach by outplaying the winningest coach in the Sec with much less.

Go Big Orange.
 
#449
#449
CountVolcula said:
But couldn't beat Vandy with the same players

=

Coaching
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Also am I missing where Dobbs started against USCe? Or where North went out early with an injury vs USCe?

I didn't think so. Wasn't the same players so your argument isn't valid.
 
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