Update with AJ Johnson trial

#51
#51
Ashevolle said:
I took exception with your comment that lawyers will say anything to get a client acquitted. The inference is that attorneys will lie. Besides being unethical and prohibited for a lawyer to do that, a good defense attorney can often get a client acquitted by pointing out simple truths. Often, that simple truth is that the police investigation was not very good and therefore the evidence is weak and not convincing beyond a reasonable doubt. I agree with everything else you said.

AJ might get acquitted of the charges, but I seriously doubt his lawyer will "say anything" to make it happen. As a side, officers of the law (unlike lawyers) are not forbidden to lie in their official capacity. Officers routinely mislead suspects to further their investigations.
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As to your last two sentences: It's like rain, on your wedding day. A free ride, when you've already paid.

Isn't it ironic?
 
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#52
#52
daj2576 said:
I have no doubt the media tends to sensationalize, that is why I don't base my views solely, or even tentatively, on what I'm shown on the news.

As I said earlier I believe there is a cultural problem with law enforcement, and it doesn't take killing civilians to prove it. Not only that but Americans in the land of the free are close to the most regulated and penalized people, certainly the most incarcerated, in the developed world.

So, what happens when you combine too many laws with an enforcement arm filled with people who identify as the ultimate authority, the righteous extension of moral will?

Well, you get a heavily militarized police force with IED resistant vehicles, BDUs, SWAT teams in every town, and police officers who identify as the gun and the badge ready to jump into the fray, instead of people who are conscientious and seek to deescalate confrontation. It's dangerously close to an "us vs them" mentality in the police force and the few senseless killings are just the tiny tip of the ice-burg. Abuse of force doesn't require murder to illustrate.

See also:

Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces: Radley Balko: 9781610394574: Amazon.com: Books

The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness: Michelle Alexander, Cornel West: 9781595586438: Amazon.com: Books

Amazon.com: A Government of Wolves: The Emerging American Police State (9781590799758): John Whitehead, Nat Hentoff: Books

Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America: Radley Balko: Amazon.com: Books

So yes, I firmly believe there is a cultural issue. I don't expect the LEO, who on a *college football* related message board, who chose a gun as his avatar, who chose the name "gunner", has a signature as "the big orange gun", and who self identifies as a fed Leo on his profile, would readily pick up the cultural issues I'm throwing down. That would be like expecting a random white man in Birmingham in 1950 to answer affirmatively that there might be some cultural issues regarding race relations.
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I really appreciate citing the extraordinary literature. I'm guessing that reading those publishings is the only the experience you have with either law enforcement or the military. In addition to what you may have seen on TV.

There does seem to be a cultural disconnect, and it's the lack of understanding that some in the public have for law enforcement and it's function in our society. Do you recall September 11, 2001? I do, just like it was yesterday. Is law enforcement getting ready for another attack? If so that would explain the military equipment used by them. Law enforcement would be foolish not to be prepared for another attack.

Life experience can be the best teacher at times. I'm not discounting academic experience, but that seems to be all that you have to draw from to make your point. If you had any experience serving in any type of law enforcement or military maybe you would understand each better. I have served in both the military and law enforcement. I am a U.S Army veteran of the Persian Gulf War. I have over 20 years of experience in law enforcement in which to base my opinions, what do you have a college degree? Oh and by the way, I have one of those too.

You obviously have a disdain for the police or law enforcement. I take great pride in my service, and I am honnored to be able to serve the citizens of this country on a daily basis.

As for my name and avatar, well that's all in good fun, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that either. If it offends you, then maybe you should just ignore my post.
 
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#54
#54
gunner said:
I really appreciate citing the extraordinary literature. I'm guessing that reading those publishings is the only the experience you have with either law enforcement or the military. In addition to what you may have seen on TV.

There does seem to be a cultural disconnect, and it's the lack of understanding that some in the public have for law enforcement and it's function in our society. Do you recall September 11, 2001? I do, just like it was yesterday. Is law enforcement getting ready for another attack? If so that would explain the military equipment used by them. Law enforcement would be foolish not to be prepared for another attack.

Life experience can be the best teacher at times. I'm not discounting academic experience, but that seems to be all that you have to draw from to make your point. If you had any experience serving in any type of law enforcement or military maybe you would understand each better. I have served in both the military and law enforcement. I am a U.S Army veteran of the Persian Gulf War. I have over 20 years of experience in law enforcement in which to base my opinions, what do you have a college degree? Oh and by the way, I have one of those too.

You obviously have a disdain for the police or law enforcement. I take great pride in my service, and I am honnored to be able to serve the citizens of this country on a daily basis.

As for my name and avatar, well that's all in good fun, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that either. If it offends you, then maybe you should just ignore my post.
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Thank you for your service and for protecting and keeping the public safe. Just know people on this board DO support you.
 
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#56
#56
gunner said:
I really appreciate citing the extraordinary literature. I'm guessing that reading those publishings is the only the experience you have with either law enforcement or the military. In addition to what you may have seen on TV.

There does seem to be a cultural disconnect, and it's the lack of understanding that some in the public have for law enforcement and it's function in our society. Do you recall September 11, 2001? I do, just like it was yesterday. Is law enforcement getting ready for another attack? If so that would explain the military equipment used by them. Law enforcement would be foolish not to be prepared for another attack.

Life experience can be the best teacher at times. I'm not discounting academic experience, but that seems to be all that you have to draw from to make your point. If you had any experience serving in any type of law enforcement or military maybe you would understand each better. I have served in both the military and law enforcement. I am a U.S Army veteran of the Persian Gulf War. I have over 20 years of experience in law enforcement in which to base my opinions, what do you have a college degree? Oh and by the way, I have one of those too.

You obviously have a disdain for the police or law enforcement. I take great pride in my service, and I am honnored to be able to serve the citizens of this country on a daily basis.

As for my name and avatar, well that's all in good fun, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that either. If it offends you, then maybe you should just ignore my post.
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Quite well said. I have no disdain for law enforcement, but I do harbor a lack of trust from experiences that I have witnessed. Part of the problem is that we have "for profit" prisons that offer healthy kickbacks to send inmates their way, and there have been many judges (who are now in prison themselves) that have engaged in this practice. Particularly juvenile judges. I also find it more than interesting that our nation has less than 5% of the worlds population but houses 25% of the worlds prison population. The largest by far. It's a scary thought.
 
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#59
#59
gunner said:
I agree completely, and in my experience the vast majority of of law enforcement officers are dedicated and hard working professionals. These professionals want the few bad officers removed from our profession as much as anyone. I appreciate your support.
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I appreciate your honorable contribution.
I had the luxury of family members in law enforcement and many good friends over the years.

When I first moved out on my own at 17, it wasn't the best neighborhood. To make a long story short, I was robbed by 2 officers taking advantage of that situation. With all my previous positive experience, it couldn't jade me against the profession. But, I was lucky to have the good ones to help with my opinion.
 
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#60
#60
Alright look guys I work for a dept that has had at last count 13 sent to prison. Former police officers. I am straight by the book plus compassion. There are bad folks in every part of life. But no decent officer goes out thinking I'm gonna shoot someone today. One of ours was a high ranking lt working also with fbi. And he was most corrupt out of all.
 
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#61
#61
vol445 said:
Alright look guys I work for a dept that has had at last count 13 sent to prison. Former police officers. I am straight by the book plus compassion. There are bad folks in every part of life. But no decent officer goes out thinking I'm gonna shoot someone today. One of ours was a high ranking lt working also with fbi. And he was most corrupt out of all.
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Yeah, that is my point also. There is automatically going to be good and bad in everything... I was surprised when I saw earlier comments suggesting it was a support or against issue. But then I scanned the news headlines and saw the conversation around the country. So I now assume that the conversation here had a political undertone. God I hate politics.

Btw, once I stopped watching the news and removed myself completely from politics, my happiness level took an upswing that I could not even begin to describe. I know many would scoff at the notion, but don't condemn it until you try.
 
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#62
#62
chargervol said:
Despite the comments made here, I believe it's ok to support the good cops AND want the bad ones removed. I honestly don't know how you guys come to the conclusion that one must be either pro or con police. If you are one of the good guys, you have my support. If you are/were ever a jerk with badge, then that is all you are.
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The same reason you're either a liberal or a right wing nutjob; people like to think inside little boxes. The world is sooo many shades of gray, virtually never black and white.
 
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#63
#63
vol445 said:
Alright look guys I work for a dept that has had at last count 13 sent to prison. Former police officers. I am straight by the book plus compassion. There are bad folks in every part of life. But no decent officer goes out thinking I'm gonna shoot someone today. One of ours was a high ranking lt working also with fbi. And he was most corrupt out of all.
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Most cops are good people. Almost none would ever leave the house with the intent to shoot someone. However, police work attracts a certain element and type of person. Power hungry people with attitude problems. People who are content to bully average citizens out of their rights.

New training programs need to be implemented. Cops need to understand that they are there to protect our rights. Right now there is an us vs them mentality that needs to be abandoned.
 
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#67
#67
White Bread said:
Thank you for your service and for protecting and keeping the public safe. Just know people on this board DO support you.
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I am honored to serve, and I appreciate your kind words and support just like the majority of all LEO's in this great nation.
 
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#68
#68
gunner said:
I really appreciate citing the extraordinary literature. I'm guessing that reading those publishings is the only the experience you have with either law enforcement or the military. In addition to what you may have seen on TV.

There does seem to be a cultural disconnect, and it's the lack of understanding that some in the public have for law enforcement and it's function in our society. Do you recall September 11, 2001? I do, just like it was yesterday. Is law enforcement getting ready for another attack? If so that would explain the military equipment used by them. Law enforcement would be foolish not to be prepared for another attack.

Life experience can be the best teacher at times. I'm not discounting academic experience, but that seems to be all that you have to draw from to make your point. If you had any experience serving in any type of law enforcement or military maybe you would understand each better. I have served in both the military and law enforcement. I am a U.S Army veteran of the Persian Gulf War. I have over 20 years of experience in law enforcement in which to base my opinions, what do you have a college degree? Oh and by the way, I have one of those too.

You obviously have a disdain for the police or law enforcement. I take great pride in my service, and I am honnored to be able to serve the citizens of this country on a daily basis.

As for my name and avatar, well that's all in good fun, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that either. If it offends you, then maybe you should just ignore my post.
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To your point, actually, I'm Army Airborne qualified (All the Way!), a former full-time firefighter, I hold a degree from the University of Tennessee (and wear the moniker of Volunteer proudly), and I am a law student (a law graduate in a few weeks) who spent a great deal of time working as a provisionally licensed attorney with the underprivileged and indigent in the public defender's office. I have and continue to serve in almost every capacity that I can. Experience has been a cruel mistress, she has taught me the hell of crawling through burning buildings, the fear of exiting a C-130, the pain of zipping up body bags with those that I could not save, and the elation of seeing an emergency end with no harm to life or limb. Experience has also shown me the dangers of giving people a weapon and too much authority.

Have I done enough? Certainly not. I've never been able to save a life, but I have given much of my soul trying. I don't need or want recognition for what I have done, because it was inconsequential. But none of that matters in a conversation about the culture of the police force. One should experience things, but that isn't the trump card in an argument.

I don't have disdain for the police. Actually, I just hold our Constitution in a place of honor and above any group that wields its power. If our Constitution and the police force are at odds, I will take the side of that old parchment every time. I firmly believe that police should be held to higher standards and should work under constant civilian over-sight (as a base, read a case styled Jordan v. City of New London). There should always be a discussion about the role, capability, and authority of the police.

The fact that many police are apparently threatened by this conversation, or question the motives or resume of anyone who wants to have this conversation, further proves that it must be had and that changes are likely long past necessary. I believe that most cops probably are good people, but even a tiny minority of wrong doers with ultimate authority is infinitely too many. Further, the reality is that good people doing a job does not make the job they are doing good. If you went under the knife in surgery, and the doctor cut off the wrong arm, I doubt you'd wake up and say,"well, that doctor sure is a good guy, it doesn't matter that he just irreparably damaged me forever."

And yes, as a firefighter, I remember the 343 FDNY men who died in those towers on 9/11, not to mention the police and civilians. I also remember travesties of justice like The Patriot Act and others that have followed. But to address your point, if the NYPD had millions of APC's, assault rifles, and were all trained swat officers, none of that could have stopped the September 11th attacks. Boston HAD APCs, and a heavily militarized police force and they couldn't stop the Boston Marathon Bombers. So no, I don't find merit in either sloppily conflating the Constitutional roles of the military and state police powers to justify the militarization of the latter, or in suggesting that all of this hardware is a purely preventative measure (if it would even work as such). But there are those who do believe that if we just gave the cops more and bigger guns, more para-military training, a constant benefit of the doubt, or if we retained fewer rights, we could all sleep safer at night. What I believe, to turn an old phrase, is that when you give a man who desperately wants to be a carpenter a hammer, he will see nothing but nails.


I believe it was Ben Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 
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#69
#69
It's not very polite to use the AJ thread for non related post.:thud::thud::thud::thud::thud::thud:
 
#70
#70
1 in 102 said:
Probably the most widespread, degrading, and least true stereotype in all of professions.
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There are plenty of lawyers out there that are dishonest. But those would be dishonest in any profession because that is who they are as a person. Same is true with cops, teachers, car mechanics, and car salesperson.

In general, the human population is overwhelmingly good. There is a fraction, however, that no matter what, they suck at life and ruin it for all of us on some level.
 
#71
#71
TN_Vol_Fo_Life said:
There are plenty of lawyers out there that are dishonest. But those would be dishonest in any profession because that is who they are as a person. Same is true with cops, teachers, car mechanics, and car salesperson.

In general, the human population is overwhelmingly good. There is a fraction, however, that no matter what, they suck at life and ruin it for all of us on some level.
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You bumped this thread for that?
 
#74
#74
gunner said:
Making generalalizations like this are a huge part of the problem on both sides.

I encourage anyone who thinks the police are the ONLY problem in this country to go down to their local police department or sheriff's department and ask to go on a ride along for the entire shift. Do it on a Friday or Saturday night, and ask to be placed in their most active zone.

I promise you that your perspectives will be changed. If you have the balls to do it!!!

If you don't have the balls to do it then please stop criticizing the job of law enforcement.
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Yet, at the beginning of this thread, you generalize and criticize all defense attorneys and make the statement that they will do or say anything to have their clients acquitted?

You, especially as a LEO, are not in a position to say that. Unless, of course, you've watched each and every criminal trial. In the trials you were involved in, the defense attorney was advocating against your charges (making sure you did your job lawfully and thoroughly). I quite often am not trying to have my client acquitted. Especially not doing or saying anything unethical in doing so. But, EVERY time, I'm making the State prove their case. You protect the citizens, we protect YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS as citizens in America.

Maybe someone with an inherent bias shouldn't be making the claims you are?

I have respect for most cops. There are a lot I don't. The ones I don't, I have personally witnessed in illegal or reprehensible behavior.

For you, thanks for you service and stay safe.
 
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