Ukraine Protests

[CSpindizzy]

You can repeat the lie enough and it is still a lie. The US did NOT destabilize a country on Ukraine's border. Please do yourself a favor and stop the nonsense. Insisting a phone call implies a coup is sheer idiocy. The destabilization was caused by Russia and a puppet she placed in power. Ukraine is not Russia's little pet. As for the US minding its own business I will again remind you of the fact that the US and Russia both had legally binding ties to Ukraine after the fall of the USSR even cemented with the Budapest Memorandum. As much as you keep repeating the Russian narrative I will remind you that both Russia and the US allowed each other a vested interest in protecting Ukraine as a sovereign nation. When you inked pledges to this, there is no minding of business. Russia would not have needed to get involved? They've been involved from the get-go. Your ignorance denying these facts is amazing since you love to sit there and say how people are ignorant of history.

Please enlighten us to how involved Russia is in Ukraine. Please tell me what legal bearing they had in invading Crimea, propping up an illegal transitional government, holding a sham illegal election, and then taking Crimea. Russia simply created a situation in which they gained control of the Black Sea and naval bases as well as the shipyards needed to retool their outdated dilapidated surface fleet. Yushchenko stalled on renewing the lease for the naval base. Russia was scared and did everything in their power to ensure Yanukovich won including his lie that got him elected. Once Yanukovich was elected he renewed the lease AND added the ability for Russian ground forces to even train in Crimea - which set them up perfectly to seize this from Ukraine. Wheels in motion far before Maidan. But you still insist this is all the US. Russia had its claws on Ukraine for some time. Russia's intent is to tear apart and destabilize Ukraine. They signed an agreement counter to that. The US works to uphold their end of the bargain and in typical Soviet fashion, Russia becomes the victim and the US the aggressor. Let's do a score check here. Both nations start off pledging to honor and respect Ukraine. To date Crimea was plucked from Ukraine. Thousands of Russian nationals have crossed the border with Russia's permission to fight and destabilize Ukraine. Trained killers and equipment have been given a green light to wage war in Ukraine. You can argue what level Russia is involved. But to date they have done NOTHING to stabilize the situation. Even in the ceasefire they pushed to give the freelancers time to kill and take more land. What has the US done? By your own admission, they were not part of Minsk I or II. Has the US sent troops? Equipment? Non-lethal, yes. Weapons? What's the score?

 

[CSpindizzy]

And Russia is way more involved in the Ukraine than you'll ever admit.

When his only source of info is RT and other Russian media, he will never admit. He can deny what Russia does because he willingly chooses to ignore the facts and only take in the line fascist state media publishes.

 

[Grand Vol]

Assuming Egypt is doing so, I'm not the one proclaiming the Camp David Accords a success. So if both sides are attacking Gaza, then that pretty much kills your argument.

Assuming? Are you really going to ignore things that are happening and likely might even be in report on RT?

Gaza wasn't included as a security zone under the Camp David Accords you nitwit. Possible self governance in the future yes, but not as part of the Accords. The only security zone was the Sinai and that's been working for thirty plus years. And if both are attacking Gaza, that doesn't mean the Accords are being broken as both sides see the Hamas threat. But you are too stupid to know this because, well, you're stupid.

And we see how much self governance has done for Gaza. I mean, it's not like a terrorist group took charge and started lobbing rockets into civilian targets or anything. No big deal.

**** Hamas too. I'll add them to my list.

 

[volprof]

No, Grand was perfectly sober and clear headed last night.

Touche

 

[Grand Vol]

When his only source of info is RT and other Russian media, he will never admit. He can deny what Russia does because he willingly chooses to ignore the facts and only take in the line fascist state media publishes.

Like I said, our foreign policy needs an immediate transfusion of balls to do the right thing.

This goes way beyond my normal mode of wait and see at this point. Our political leaders are complete and utter failures on the world stage. And as I said way back earlier in the thread, I'd be afraid to ask for US or any western nation's help at this point. I'd even be afraid of any defense agreements with any US or western nation at this point. Because right now, the Ukraine is getting raped on a national scale, screaming for help and the rest of the world is walking on by like it's not happening. And furthermore, telling them to go right back to the spot they got raped at knowing full well the rapist is still there with a huge grin on his face.

This is the point where the Ukraine is forced with a choice. Either acquiesce to the Russian demands and lose a significant portion of their territory or continue getting their ass handed to them by a well supplied army and potentially lose it all. Because right now they know they aren't going to get help from anyone else.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You can repeat the lie enough and it is still a lie. The US did NOT destabilize a country on Ukraine's border. Please do yourself a favor and stop the nonsense. Insisting a phone call implies a coup is sheer idiocy.

It is more than just a phone call. It is actually Nuland and Pyatt with their boots on the ground meeting with opposition leaders before the coup.

 

[Grand Vol]

Every answer Ras will ever have will fall back to

"Nuland meeting with opposition..."

"The vote in Crimea..."

"Russia didn't have anything to do with the rebels..."

"MH17 was a CIA sham..."

Or combinations of the above. Pick one as a canned response to any question posed to him from now on and move along.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Apparently two guys captured and already confessed. Hard to believe 'jihadists' would not have released a statement from the get-go claiming responsibility. It will be interesting to see what story details are released over the next few days.

Kommersant

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Like I said, our foreign policy needs an immediate transfusion of balls to do the right thing.

At what point do we stop investing time, money and potentially American lives to save every country out there that "wants to be our friend" for an immediate, short term gain?

When is "enough" enough?

 

[Grand Vol]

At what point do we stop investing time, money and potentially American lives to save every country out there that "wants to be our friend" for an immediate, short term gain?

When is "enough" enough?

When Russia decides not to support and supply the rebels in Eastern Ukraine and forces a peace agreement through.

You aren't concerned about American lives. Who the **** are you trying to kid?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You aren't concerned about American lives. Who the **** are you trying to kid?

Wait... what does that mean? I'm not coming on here with a bloodthirsty, kill-crazy agenda to send troops and weapons all over the globe nor jeopardize having Americans killed here in the US in some large scale nuclear fight.

 

[volprof]

Apparently two guys captured and already confessed. Hard to believe 'jihadists' would not have released a statement from the get-go claiming responsibility. It will be interesting to see what story details are released over the next few days.

Kommersant

I was actually thinking about how the investigation would go yesterday. Whether it would just lead to a dead-end (according to Russian investigators) or if they'd find some schmuck who had ran foul of the establishment to take the heat. Looks like Kadyrov's "associates" will get the blame. Probably pissed him off one way or the other so this is the way they can redeem themselves (by taking the blame) and, in return, not being killed themselves.

 

[Grand Vol]

Wait... what does that mean? I'm not coming on here with a bloodthirsty, kill-crazy agenda to send troops and weapons all over the globe nor jeopardize having Americans killed here in the US in some large scale nuclear fight.

You're the only idiot around here that thinks this will turn into a nuclear conflict.

Because you are the aforementioned stupid.

And you don't give two ****s about American lives. Take it as it's written.

 

[CSpindizzy]

It is more than just a phone call. It is actually Nuland and Pyatt with their boots on the ground meeting with opposition leaders before the coup.

Diplomats meeting with politicians in the opposition party? You know this happens all the time right? Add to the fact that AGAIN Yanukovich was already discussing adding opposition to his government. As the message of the call actually indicated we were basically saying which one we had more support for....a loose cannon boxer or the guy who was actually #2 in government. Again, something that is standard in diplomacy and you see boogeymen under beds and in closets. Come back when you have something actually worthwhile. You are still far short of proving anything. If anything, every bit of "evidence" you offer only dispels the myth a coup happened.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

When Russia decides not to support and supply the rebels in Eastern Ukraine and forces a peace agreement through.

The Eastern Ukraine ship has sailed... move on. There is no getting that back as part of Ukraine. There wouldn't be an "Eastern Ukraine" had the US not destabilized the country in the first place. The country would still be united. Every action has consequences, and the US miscalculated the consequences in their quest to bring Ukraine into the EU/NATO ring of influence.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

And you don't give two ****s about American lives. Take it as it's written.

How can you say that? Based on what?

 

[CSpindizzy]

The Eastern Ukraine ship has sailed... move on. There is no getting that back as part of Ukraine. There wouldn't be an "Eastern Ukraine" had the US not destabilized the country in the first place. The country would still be united. Every action has consequences, and the US miscalculated the consequences in their quest to bring Ukraine into the EU/NATO ring of influence.

So you are admitting Minsk II will be broken or was designed to never succeed? Because Minsk II that was signed by the "separatists" and Russia say this will remain part of Ukraine.

Still blaming the US with no proof. You truly are a stubborn ignorant fool. It's sad when people deny simple facts and history. Making claims with no proof...I pegged you being a little smarter than that. Russia had eastern Ukraine being pulled apart well before Maidan. You cannot grasp this fact. Or you just care less and don't mind promoting the fascist Putin agenda.

 

[Grand Vol]

How can you say that? Based on what?

I think of it as an absolute since your previous history of being anti-American on everyone on here means you have no ****s to give if Americans lost their life in the Ukraine, the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. You despise this country Ras and that shows in your posting time and time again. So don't try to kid yourself that you'd shed one bloody tear over anyone who lost their life in the Ukraine defending a small country against a larger one.

You're more than welcome to correct me if you dare.

 

[Grand Vol]

So you are admitting Minsk II will be broken or was designed to never succeed? Because Minsk II that was signed by the "separatists" and Russia say this will remain part of Ukraine.

Still blaming the US with no proof. You truly are a stubborn ignorant fool. It's sad when people deny simple facts and history. Making claims with no proof...I pegged you being a little smarter than that. Russia had eastern Ukraine being pulled apart well before Maidan. You cannot grasp this fact. Or you just care less and don't mind promoting the fascist Putin agenda.

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing by just saying the bolded area as the rest was just fluff. And even more time by omitting the word "stubborn."

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I think of it as an absolute since your previous history of being anti-American on everyone on here means you have no ****s to give if Americans lost their life in the Ukraine, the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. You despise this country Ras and that shows in your posting time and time again. So don't try to kid yourself that you'd shed one bloody tear over anyone who lost their life in the Ukraine defending a small country against a larger one.

You're more than welcome to correct me if you dare.

Really? I have a history of being anti-American on here? Starting when?

The only thing I despise about this country is what it has become and where it may be going. This country is turning into one that limits individual freedoms and engages in conflicts around the world in order to defend a flawed economic system. I'm for the country returning to the Constitution, engaging in fair trade with all countries, and protecting American life, liberties and property.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

So you are admitting Minsk II will be broken or was designed to never succeed? Because Minsk II that was signed by the "separatists" and Russia say this will remain part of Ukraine.

Only a matter of time before the East has elections and joins Crimea into Russia.

Still blaming the US with no proof.

I've provided sufficient proof. You just choose to ignore it.

 

[Grand Vol]

Really? I have a history of being anti-American on here? Starting when?

The only thing I despise about this country is what it has become and where it may be going. This country is turning into one that limits individual freedoms and engages in conflicts around the world in order to defend a flawed economic system. I'm for the country returning to the Constitution, engaging in fair trade with all countries, and protecting American life, liberties and property.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Mature response... :shakehead:

Show me your proof that I'm anti-American and I don't care about American lives. You say I have this history of being anti-American, go ahead and prove it.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Only a matter of time before the East has elections and joins Crimea into Russia.


I've provided sufficient proof. You just choose to ignore it.

Minsk does not allow that. And they would have to hold elections according to the Ukrainian constitution. I know Russia circumvented Ukraine's constitution to gain Crimea. Hopefully Ukraine ensures their constitution is followed. I guess yet again, you support illegal acts of Russia but then accuse the US of being the perpetrator. The fact you defend Russia for doing what you accuse the US of doing shows your bias and a lack of a standard applied across the board.

Diplomats meeting does not prove a coup. If that were the case, there are coups plotted daily every time diplomats speak to each other. You really are clueless. You need to check the definition of "sufficient". If you walked into a courtroom with this "proof" you'd be laughed out the door. There's far more evidence against Russia's involvement but you still blame the US. It really is pathetic there are people who believe this tripe. In Russia this is all they are fed. You have the benefit of actually learning the facts and you still insist on being of the Russian mindset.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Minsk does not allow that. And they would have to hold elections according to the Ukrainian constitution. I know Russia circumvented Ukraine's constitution to gain Crimea. Hopefully Ukraine ensures their constitution is followed. I guess yet again, you support illegal acts of Russia but then accuse the US of being the perpetrator. The fact you defend Russia for doing what you accuse the US of doing shows your bias and a lack of a standard applied across the board.

Diplomats meeting does not prove a coup. If that were the case, there are coups plotted daily every time diplomats speak to each other. You really are clueless. You need to check the definition of "sufficient". If you walked into a courtroom with this "proof" you'd be laughed out the door. There's far more evidence against Russia's involvement but you still blame the US. It really is pathetic there are people who believe this tripe. In Russia this is all they are fed. You have the benefit of actually learning the facts and you still insist on being of the Russian mindset.

There is a UN resolution from the late 1960's (I can't find it right now, but I read it a few weeks ago and meant to post it back then) in regards to people being able to determine their own fate. The UN resolution would be invoked by the east and would trump Minsk II.

And I don't buy into the Russian viewpoint as much as I am fully aware of the work that the US has done in the past and is doing in the present. That isn't anti-American, that is just me being aware of American facts.