Ukraine Protests

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#6,951
#6,951
Pacer92 said:
Not to mention the orange revolution of 2004..
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yes, how dare the international and local communities demand a recount in 2004, leading to another national vote. if you believe the whole purpose in 2004 was to keep Yanukovych out of office why wasn't there another recount in 2010 when he was elected? we had apparently pulled it off once before, and later 'proved' (in your mind) that we are willing to overthrow him with force? seems a little inconsistent.
 
#6,952
#6,952
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'll give you one more chance. You've insulted my knowledge (or lack thereof) of history without explaining what details I may be missing and now this.

Just come out and say it so we can have an honest debate.
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i believe he is saying that the Kremlin dumped thousands to millions of 'native russians' into Crimea to stabilize the region as the real locals hate Russia and Russians. He would have to give specifics, I am just guessing.

and the earlier piece of history was talking about the division of Poland between Germany and Russia in WWII, and its parallels to today.
 
#6,953
#6,953
LouderVol said:
i believe he is saying that the Kremlin dumped thousands to millions of 'native russians' into Crimea to stabilize the region as the real locals hate Russia and Russians. He would have to give specifics, I am just guessing.

and the earlier piece of history was talking about the division of Poland between Germany and Russia in WWII, and its parallels to today.
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You get it!

And not only dumping the thousands of Russians (Sevastopol was a "Hero" city during WWII and attracted a lot of workers) but the forced relocation of the native Tartars into the Soviet Steppe regions.
 
#6,954
#6,954
Grand Vol said:
You get it!

And not only dumping the thousands of Russians (Sevastopol was a "Hero" city during WWII and attracted a lot of workers) but the forced relocation of the native Tartars into the Soviet Steppe regions.
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i was hoping he was familiar with Uncle Stalin's 'purges'
 
#6,955
#6,955
Grand Vol said:
You get it!

And not only dumping the thousands of Russians (Sevastopol was a "Hero" city during WWII and attracted a lot of workers) but the forced relocation of the native Tartars into the Soviet Steppe regions.
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So similar in the way we forced native Americans into the desert southwest?
 
#6,956
#6,956
LouderVol said:
yes, how dare the international and local communities demand a recount in 2004, leading to another national vote. if you believe the whole purpose in 2004 was to keep Yanukovych out of office why wasn't there another recount in 2010 when he was elected? we had apparently pulled it off once before, and later 'proved' (in your mind) that we are willing to overthrow him with force? seems a little inconsistent.
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Since we are on the subject of recounting votes, can we get the vote results for the 2014 election in Afghanistan?
 
#6,960
#6,960
Rasputin_Vol said:
That's just it... there is no Soviet threat. You are still fighting the Cold War and you are 25 years behind.

Putin is not trying to build a communist empire. What Putin is trying to do is create a EurAsian trade zone that would rival the EU and the US. Russia has turned the page from communism, but it seems like most of you guys are still hellbent on trying to make Russia out to be some communist menace.
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Not a communist menace anymore. Russia is a fascist menace now. Flipped the entire political spectrum in just 25 years!
 
#6,961
#6,961
LouderVol said:
i believe he is saying that the Kremlin dumped thousands to millions of 'native russians' into Crimea to stabilize the region as the real locals hate Russia and Russians. He would have to give specifics, I am just guessing.

and the earlier piece of history was talking about the division of Poland between Germany and Russia in WWII, and its parallels to today.
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I figured he was talking about Poland but wasn't certain. In that case, you had 2 empires coming together to decide how to carve up a third country that will be consumed in each empire without Poland's involvement. As far as today... it is what it is. Germany doesn't have eyes on absorbing Ukraine in a German Empire and Russia has no intentions of absorbing all of Ukraine to rebuild some new Red Empire. Sure, you will have the Eastern Ukrainian portion on the table, but the residents of Eastern Ukraine and the interests in Kiev will be at the negotiating table along with Germany and Russia. Keep in mind also that it is not just about Eastern Ukraine. Russia is also owed billions of dollars in gas sales to Ukraine and Ukraine is losing revenue from the lease agreement for Crimea. I think if these groups could come together without a 5th influence (the US) getting involved, this thing could be resolved in short order.
 
#6,963
#6,963
Rasputin_Vol said:
I figured he was talking about Poland but wasn't certain. In that case, you had 2 empires coming together to decide how to carve up a third country that will be consumed in each empire without Poland's involvement. As far as today... it is what it is. Germany doesn't have eyes on absorbing Ukraine in a German Empire and Russia has no intentions of absorbing all of Ukraine to rebuild some new Red Empire. Sure, you will have the Eastern Ukrainian portion on the table, but the residents of Eastern Ukraine and the interests in Kiev will be at the negotiating table along with Germany and Russia. Keep in mind also that it is not just about Eastern Ukraine. Russia is also owed billions of dollars in gas sales to Ukraine and Ukraine is losing revenue from the lease agreement for Crimea. I think if these groups could come together without a 5th influence (the US) getting involved, this thing could be resolved in short order.
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You apparently don't think that Ukraine is a coherent or sovereign nation. I accused you of stating as much in the past; you flipped your lid because I couldn't find the exact post out of the previous 5,000 or so and have put me on "Ignore."

But this statement, although it probably wasn't your intention, further confirms what I said earlier. You don't really buy the fact that Ukraine, as it exists, is a real nation.
 
#6,964
#6,964
Grand Vol said:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You have no idea how that Russian "majority" came into being in the Crimea do you?
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Why is this particular issue so important or more important than the countless other examples across the globe. The people that are there now are majority Russian. They had a vote. They choose to join Russia. The End.

Do we want to start questioning how different ethnicities achieved majorities in Haiti, Palestine or the United States? Does that make any of their elections invalid?

Why is Ukraine so important that you guys are willing to support our govt bringing us to the brink of another World War over a country that is halfway across the globe, has no direct or indirect threat or benefit to us and should be more of an issue for the countries that neighbor it? I just don't understand why you guys are willing to follow the likes of Obama and John McCain over this issue.
 
#6,965
#6,965
volprof said:
Not a communist menace anymore. Russia is a fascist menace now. Flipped the entire political spectrum in just 25 years!
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It's quite perplexing that a fascist menace on this very day is trying to end this conflict with European leaders, while the US is bringing in weapons and "advisors" as we speak...
 
#6,966
#6,966
Rasputin_Vol said:
What do the Soviets, the 2 World Wars and the 40 years of Cold War that ended in 1990 have to do with the situation today?
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Rasputin_Vol said:
Again, that territory has been more Russian than Ukrainian for over 200 years.
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Selective use of history, methinks.

And if the Cold War is bygone, why do you keep using that paradigm to justify Russia's actions (NATO missiles at its borders!)?
 
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#6,969
#6,969
Pacer92 said:
It's quite perplexing that a fascist menace on this very day is trying to end this conflict with European leaders, while the US is bringing in weapons and "advisors" as we speak...
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A meeting that doesn't include Ukrainian officials. How convenient.
 
#6,971
#6,971
Pacer92 said:
It's quite perplexing that a fascist menace on this very day is trying to end this conflict with European leaders, while the US is bringing in weapons and "advisors" as we speak...
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I agree. Putin is trying to negotiate while sending equipment and troops in at the same time. It's almost like he doesn't really want that particular part of the world stable at the moment or something.

Look, as you and I know, we've all been talking past one another throughout this thread. Regarding this particular part of the topic, you don't think Russia is actually sending arms and troops to Ukraine. Okay, fair enough. But when you and Rasputin demand proof, and we provide you with pictures/film of Russian marines in Donetsk, armored columns moving across the border, selfies from known Russian soldiers on their social media accounts, etc. I don't know what else you all want from us.

What will prove it for you? At this point, I'm not sure there's any proof, shy of video of Vlad himself commandeering a T-90 through the streets of Kiev, that will suffice for you.
 
#6,972
#6,972
Rasputin_Vol said:
Why is this particular issue so important or more important than the countless other examples across the globe. The people that are there now are majority Russian. They had a vote. They choose to join Russia. The End.

Do we want to start questioning how different ethnicities achieved majorities in Haiti, Palestine or the United States? Does that make any of their elections invalid?

Why is Ukraine so important that you guys are willing to support our govt bringing us to the brink of another World War over a country that is halfway across the globe, has no direct or indirect threat or benefit to us and should be more of an issue for the countries that neighbor it? I just don't understand why you guys are willing to follow the likes of Obama and John McCain over this issue.
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For once, I halfway agree with something you've posted to this forum. If Russia is willing to start a war with the West for the Donbass, then I say let them have it. That part of the world doesn't affect my life.
 
#6,973
#6,973
Rasputin_Vol said:
Why is this particular issue so important or more important than the countless other examples across the globe. The people that are there now are majority Russian. They had a vote. They choose to join Russia. The End.

Do we want to start questioning how different ethnicities achieved majorities in Haiti, Palestine or the United States? Does that make any of their elections invalid?

Why is Ukraine so important that you guys are willing to support our govt bringing us to the brink of another World War over a country that is halfway across the globe, has no direct or indirect threat or benefit to us and should be more of an issue for the countries that neighbor it? I just don't understand why you guys are willing to follow the likes of Obama and John McCain over this issue.
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world wars have always started in Europe. and always drag in America. if anything what we have now is a terrifying mix of the cause of both 1 and 2. We have a vastly complicated system of alliances and interconnection which does nothing but ratchet up tension. and we have a mad man at the lead of economically struggling country hell bent on fixing those problems, both real and imagined, not matter the cost to the rest of the world.

this is the new age of technology, where everything and everyone is connected. we literally can't go into isolation mode except to go full potato like NK. The US is the richest country in the world, it has gotten there by being in bed with literally everyone. and that system has been in place for so long (WWIIish) that the world would go through a dramatic change just to sideline us. The US has to be involved everywhere, or it has to give up its riches. The only thing that would change in a non-US monied world is who is making the most money. removing the US wouldn't change anything other than the CEO at the top.

so why do we care? because we have too to maintain ourselves, we painted ourselves into a corner by being #1, and history has already proven it aint easy being #1, look at what happened to the USSR. think Game of Thrones (don't know if you watch it or read it) but if you play you play to the death.
 
#6,974
#6,974
MG1968 said:
The last time the US fully committed itself to defeating an enemy, it ended up dropping two nuclear devices on civilian cities in Japan.
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and saved the japanese population from genocide that the invasion would have been.
 
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