Ukraine Protests

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#4,676
#4,676
Per the BBC



Interesting developments in Estonia, where the government is claiming "unidentified individuals from Russia abducted an official of the Estonian Internal Security Service on Estonian territory near the Luhamaa border checkpoint". The Russian ambassador has been summoned to the foreign ministry in connection with today's incident it said in a statement.
 
#4,677
#4,677
red butler said:
I disagree on the economic impact. Russia has signed trade deals that will make ties closer with China, the BRICS are in the process of setting up a competitor to the World Bank, and they are feverishly working toward an alternative to the SWIFT system. The other thing this conflict exposed is that Western Europe is pretty dependent on Russian trade as well as gas.
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Russia can certainly move towards the East. It's likely its economy is going to shrink no matter what though. Its population is aging out quickly. It currently has a population around 145 to 150 million people. I've heard some estimates that, by 2040 or 2050, it will hardly have 100 million (unless some major shift occurs within the populace).
 
#4,678
#4,678
Burhead said:
Per the BBC



Interesting developments in Estonia, where the government is claiming "unidentified individuals from Russia abducted an official of the Estonian Internal Security Service on Estonian territory near the Luhamaa border checkpoint". The Russian ambassador has been summoned to the foreign ministry in connection with today's incident it said in a statement.
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If Russians weren't abducting someone somewhere, I would be worried. All, however, seems right with the world.
 
#4,679
#4,679
red butler said:
Russia has signed trade deals that will make ties closer with China, the BRICS are in the process of setting up a competitor to the World Bank, and they are feverishly working toward an alternative to the SWIFT system.
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Bordering on @Rasputin_Vol sockpuppet territory.
 
#4,681
#4,681
Obama currently speaking at closing of NATO Summit. Said that more Russian sanctions were being finalized.
 
#4,683
#4,683
i am a little behind so bear with me. but why would Russia, if as Ras says, who has nothing to do with the conflict, be doing at the cease fire meetings? :whistling:
if they aren't involved why are they part of it? Impartial mediators? bahahahaha, couldn't say that with a straight face.
 
#4,684
#4,684
LouderVol said:
i am a little behind so bear with me. but why would Russia, if as Ras says, who has nothing to do with the conflict, be doing at the cease fire meetings? :whistling:
if they aren't involved why are they part of it? Impartial mediators? bahahahaha, couldn't say that with a straight face.
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It's a Russian world.
 
#4,690
#4,690
LouderVol said:
which just somehow goes awry enough to be just what Russia wants.:question:
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There was a CIA coup in Kiev, sir! Have you not heard?

I have absolutely no evidence to prove such, other than a video clip of Victoria Nuland giving cookies to Maidan protesters, but I do ask you to provide definitive proof of Russian involvement! Your satellite images look like that from a video game.
 
#4,691
#4,691
volprof said:
There was a CIA coup in Kiev, sir! Have you not heard?

I have absolutely no evidence to prove such, other than a video clip of Victoria Nuland giving cookies to Maidan protesters, but I do ask you to provide definitive proof of Russian involvement! Your satellite images look like that from a video game.
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Have you seen video games lately? They have much higher resolution than the images that were released. But seriously, satellite imagery isn't that difficult to trick. Check out these fancy balloons (they even have stuff that will create a thermal signature). Something similar was used to great effect against our Air Force when we bombed Serbia. What a let down! Russia tricks enemies with inflatable army of tanks and planes | Mail Online

I'm not denying Russian troops/equipment could be in Ukraine. I just think it's interesting that our multi-billion dollar imagery platforms can be tricked with a thousand dollar balloon.
 
#4,692
#4,692
in war the first casualty is the truth. The brits tricked the germans into bombing a barren stretch of desert in WWII, hired a magician to pull it off, can't remember who. This was in Africa btw.
 
#4,693
#4,693
red butler said:
Have you seen video games lately? They have much higher resolution than the images that were released. But seriously, satellite imagery isn't that difficult to trick. Check out these fancy balloons (they even have stuff that will create a thermal signature). Something similar was used to great effect against our Air Force when we bombed Serbia. What a let down! Russia tricks enemies with inflatable army of tanks and planes | Mail Online

I'm not denying Russian troops/equipment could be in Ukraine. I just think it's interesting that our multi-billion dollar imagery platforms can be tricked with a thousand dollar balloon.
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the question is why trick them/us though, again if they are innocent why go through all of this?
 
#4,694
#4,694
If you don't mind a Russian invasion, then you don't mind a Russian invasion. No big deal. You're entitled to your thoughts.

I just can't understand why so many keep trying to hide it. Even the Russian govt. is ashamed of it, or else they wouldn't be going to such great lengths to deny and deflect. I don't know why though. Everyone knows they're doing it. Just own it and move on.
 
#4,695
#4,695
volprof said:
If you don't mind a Russian invasion, then you don't mind a Russian invasion. No big deal. You're entitled to your thoughts.

I just can't understand why so many keep trying to hide it. Even the Russian govt. is ashamed of it, or else they wouldn't be going to such great lengths to deny and deflect. I don't know why though. Everyone knows they're doing it. Just own it and move on.
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I don't think they are ready to invade Estonia yet :)
 
#4,696
#4,696
Burhead said:
Not to mention Putin's gamble in the Ukraine will eventually backfire in the future because it will drive Sweden and Finland into the arms of NATO as well.
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https://translate.google.com/transl...a-mer-positiva-till-natomedlemskap&edit-text=

Now a Sifo survey done on behalf of SVT that resistance to a Swedish NATO membership decreases. Today it's 32 percent who say no, compared with 50 percent six months ago, a decrease of 18 percentage points.
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#4,697
#4,697
Velo Vol said:
https://translate.google.com/transl...a-mer-positiva-till-natomedlemskap&edit-text=
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I think Sweden has been "Switzerland lite" the past century regarding keeping a constant stance of neutrality, while Finland has most likely been reluctant to join due to being right on the border with Russia and the shared history of conflict between those two countries, particularly regarding the Karelian frontier.

Of those two, for me, Finland joining would be the most intriguing. I wonder how Russia would react to that. It would be no Ukraine joining NATO, but I imagine they certainly wouldn't like it. And, if I'm not mistaken, one of Russia's (if not its biggest one) largest ICBM fields is right near the Finnish border.

While Sweden and Finland are one thing, I still don't think we need to expand NATO any further into the post-Soviet space. It serves no real strategic purpose other than offering a larger buffer zone in the event of a Russian invasion, and it just pisses off Russia, which can always be amusing and funny to watch but dangerous at the same time.
 
#4,699
#4,699
volprof said:
While Sweden and Finland are one thing, I still don't think we need to expand NATO any further into the post-Soviet space. It serves no real strategic purpose other than offering a larger buffer zone in the event of a Russian invasion, and it just pisses off Russia, which can always be amusing and funny to watch but dangerous at the same time.
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Sweden was far more pro-west during the Cold War than neutral. Being that they were in the way in a conventional hypothetical WWIII scenario meant their territory was likely to be violated as the USSR went after Norway. So they tended to sway towards the west in most matters.

But you forgot the most important part of the Ukraine being a part of NATO. It will give Ras a plethora of posting material.
 
#4,700
#4,700
Grand Vol said:
Sweden was far more pro-west during the Cold War than neutral. Being that they were in the way in a conventional hypothetical WWIII scenario meant their territory was likely to be violated as the USSR went after Norway. So they tended to sway towards the west in most matters.

But you forgot the most important part of the Ukraine being a part of NATO. It will give Ras a plethora of posting material.
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Oh, yeah, I know. Sweden has always been pro-West and pro-NATO. I was just referring to its official stance of non-alignment with binding treaties. If the crap hit the fan though, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to join a Western alliance against a Russian invasion.

As a sidenote, I've heard the Swedes have a sub-class that can't be tracked. Apparently they conducted joint naval exercises with several NATO countries, including America (I can't remember whether it was in the Atlantic, Artic, or Baltic) and it could track the other nations' subs but none of them (including the American) could track it.
 
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