Ukraine Protests

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#4,576
#4,576
Burhead said:
So why is is that we're still refusing to call this an invasion?
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Until they star showing some satellite images of Russian artillery moving across the border, they will still have cynics. If they really, really, really had evidence of this, they would most certainly be parading it around. And it wouldn't be none of this grainy/fuzzy imagery they tried to pass off on the world last month but this hi-def technology they are supposed to have that can read a newspaper from space.
 
#4,577
#4,577
Oh boy. Another day in Eastern Europe.

Ukraine Retracts Announcement of Cease-Fire With Russia

The office of President Petro O. Poroshenko of Ukraine said Wednesday that he and President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had a similar understanding about what was needed to achieve a cease-fire in southeastern Ukraine, but it retracted a statement it had made earlier in the day that said the two men had agreed to a “lasting cease-fire.”
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#4,579
#4,579
Burhead said:
First - The Russians' plan for "peace" is dividing a sovereign country's territory through use of force. Finally you're wrong but that's okay.

Second - Yanukovych was a corrupt puppet of the Kremlin who went against his people's wishes & brutalized them on the streets when they spoke out.

Third - Regardless if you admit it or not, deep down, you know those "referendums" were conducted during Russian military occupation and war-time conditions. No free and fair vote could ever take place under such scenarios.

Fourth - Kiev has every right to send in the army and police when foreign backed terrorists are taking over government buildings and openly talking about secession and joining a foreign country. They are nothing more than terrorists who deserve everything they've gotten


And now the Russians are openly disregarding all international norms and willfully violating Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity by deploying Russian equipment and combat troops to take the east.

PS. Any government would send in the army under such conditions. Just look at how the Russians treated the Chechens...

Fifth - The Kurds have been victimized for years by Saddam's Iraq. Not to mention they have not tried to declare independence nor join a foreign country to this point.

As for Scotland, the Scottish people didn't resort to terrorism nor violence and I have full confidence in the British democracy that such a vote will be conducted legally, and be free and fair to all people. Russia does not earn that trust due to the dictatorship of Putin.
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Good post is good.
 
#4,580
#4,580
Rasputin_Vol said:
Until they star showing some satellite images of Russian artillery moving across the border, they will still have cynics. If they really, really, really had evidence of this, they would most certainly be parading it around. And it wouldn't be none of this grainy/fuzzy imagery they tried to pass off on the world last month but this hi-def technology they are supposed to have that can read a newspaper from space.
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while i don't consider this conclusive evidence by any means...


maybe someone who actually knows about the Russian military can fill me/us in on this tank and whether or not Ukraine would have one of its own. I have to admit even if this is a tank only Russia uses, A tank an invasion does not make. But I doubt the Ukrainians have any tanks in rebel held territory at this point.

And Ras just admit you won't admit that Russia has invaded until Putin announces that he has taken Kiev. There are way too many coincidences happening for them not to be involved (illegally). Ukrainians reporting artillery fire from across the border. Ukrainians losing ground to the rebels who a few weeks ago were all but dead, see the reports about food shortages and rebel commanders stepping down. Russian paratroopers being carried back across the border to be buried in Russia from a 'training exercise accident'. The 10 Russian soldiers who ended up 20km inside the Ukrainian border, even if they did surrender peacefully. Reporters talking about the 23 apcs crossing the border before the 'aid convoy'. The aid convoy doing whatever the hell it is doing, last i heard it just crossed straight into rebel held territory. The other reports of tanks and apcs making it across. Yes even the satellite images that don't show Putin driving one of the artillery pieces across the border. Even the Russian officials are having to report losses from units 'stationed near the border'.

*edit* link went to different video, but if you go to the Reuters link posted above there is another link to a video showing a russian tank
 
#4,581
#4,581
Burhead said:
First - The Russians' plan for "peace" is dividing a sovereign country's territory through use of force. Finally you're wrong but that's okay.
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I believe the Ukraine would be divided in any peace plan, but the use of force has been almost entirely from the Kiev government. I may be wrong... but I doubt it. I've read Brzezinski's (special advisor to Obama) The Grand Chessboard - American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperitives so I understand why we're doing what we're doing. But I haven't decided if American hegemony is worth possibly starting a hot war.
Second - Yanukovych was a corrupt puppet of the Kremlin who went against his people's wishes & brutalized them on the streets when they spoke out.
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If you're referring to the the snipers that shot protestors as well as police, there is still a lot of questions regarding that event. This is from a German news investigation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDPJ-ucnyPU I don't know who the shooters worked for; but it appears the new government in Kiev is not interested in investigating. Plus, those shootings had nothing on the massacre in Odessa.
Third - Regardless if you admit it or not, deep down, you know those "referendums" were conducted during Russian military occupation and war-time conditions. No free and fair vote could ever take place under such scenarios.
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Why is it so hard to believe that ethnic Russians would overwhelmingly vote for independence from Ukraine? Yes, there were troops in Crimea but there always have been. I bet the people of Crimea are glad the troops are there or they'd be in the same boat as eastern Ukraine. The videos of elections in eastern Ukraine (where there were no Russian troops), show the referendum was pretty much unanimous.
Fourth - Kiev has every right to send in the army and police when foreign backed terrorists are taking over government buildings and openly talking about secession and joining a foreign country. They are nothing more than terrorists who deserve everything they've gotten
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If the referendums were fraudulent... I agree.
And now the Russians are openly disregarding all international norms and willfully violating Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity by deploying Russian equipment and combat troops to take the east.
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LOL. We've done this dozens of times. But let me guess; since it was us, it was righteous. Deep down, you know there is something very wrong with our government so you should question everything.
 
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#4,583
#4,583
volprof said:
The Russian propaganda machine working well.
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You say this every time someone questions the established narrative. For the record, I don't get any information from RT. There are many former American intelligence/army/journalism professionals that have a problem with recent events; you just don't hear their side in the MSM. This is an excellent article from yesterday by an American Warning to the World: Washington and its NATO & EU Vassals are Insane -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org. There is a link in the article to a letter from former intelligence professionals that is also excellent.
 
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#4,584
#4,584
red butler said:
You say this every time someone questions the established narrative. For the record, I don't get any information from RT. There are many former American intelligence/army/journalism professionals that have a problem with recent events; you just don't hear their side in the MSM. This is an excellent article with from yesterday by an American Warning to the World: Washington and its NATO & EU Vassals are Insane -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org. There is a link in the article to a letter from former intelligence professionals that is also excellent.
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That was an interesting article. Unfortunately, I don't tend to take people accusing Kiev of being "Nazis" and "poor little Russia, just sitting there respectfully minding its own business" in this situation very seriously.
 
#4,585
#4,585
Well I guess you Russophiles will get what you've wanted, there could be a "peace" deal by Friday. One that will forever change the boundaries of Ukraine and one that will legitimize use of force to change territorial borders.
 
#4,586
#4,586
red butler said:
I believe the Ukraine would be divided in any peace plan, but the use of force has been almost entirely from the Kiev government.
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Not sure why you have an issue here when you seemingly acknowledge this:

Burhead said:
Fourth - Kiev has every right to send in the army and police when foreign backed terrorists are taking over government buildings and openly talking about secession and joining a foreign country. They are nothing more than terrorists who deserve everything they've gotten


And now the Russians are openly disregarding all international norms and willfully violating Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity by deploying Russian equipment and combat troops to take the east.

PS. Any government would send in the army under such conditions. Just look at how the Russians treated the Chechens
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#4,587
#4,587
volprof said:
That was an interesting article. Unfortunately, I don't tend to take people accusing Kiev of being "Nazis" and "poor little Russia, just sitting there respectfully minding its own business" in this situation very seriously.
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I've read that the Nazis make up less than 5% in Ukraine. But recent events have shown that a radicalized minority (with proper funding) can have a significant impact in the Middle East. Heck, I've seen estimates that less than 3% of colonists actually fought the British.

I don't think anyone is saying Russia was minding it's own business. There was tremendous political pressure on the Ukraine from Russia not to enter the EU.
 
#4,588
#4,588
Velo Vol said:
Not sure why you have an issue here when you seemingly acknowledge this:
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I acknowledge that if the referendum votes were fraudulent and the citizens were forced to vote for independence, then certainly the government should intervene. However, I think it's a slippery slope in a democracy when the majority can constantly dictate laws against the minority. Our founders realized this and set balances in place.

I'm also looking at this from a perspective if something similar happens in the US. If things get much worse in DC, I would personally support the rights of conservative states to vote for independence. If they did, I would hope the army wouldn't be called in to prevent it.
 
#4,589
#4,589
red butler said:
I've read that the Nazis make up less than 5% in Ukraine. But recent events have shown that a radicalized minority (with proper funding) can have a significant impact in the Middle East. Heck, I've seen estimates that less than 3% of colonists actually fought the British.

I don't think anyone is saying Russia was minding it's own business. There was tremendous political pressure on the Ukraine from Russia not to enter the EU.
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The bizarre thing regarding the Ukrainian far right is that, in any other circumstances, they'd probably be huge Putin fans, just like the rest of the European far right. The difference for them is that, unlike with other European nations, he is perceived to be directly threatening Ukrainian sovereignty and statehood. Putin's brand of statism, fascism, whatever the hell you want to call it, is all fine and dandy until it begins to interfere with another's brand of statism, fascism, whatever.

And Roberts seems to be taking the Rasputin approach: that Russia is just sitting there looking out for its own interests but not actually getting involved militarily because, hey, if it did, it would only take 14 hours to wipe the Ukraine out! You would think a phd from UVA and a man with the worldly experience of a Roberts would understand the concepts of logistics, strategy, and special warfare. Apparently not though. I guess his only notion of Russian invasion involves T-90 tank divisions spearheading 50,000-200,000 Russian troops into Ukraine all of a sudden.
 
#4,590
#4,590
red butler said:
I acknowledge that if the referendum votes were fraudulent and the citizens were forced to vote for independence, then certainly the government should intervene. However, I think it's a slippery slope in a democracy when the majority can constantly dictate laws against the minority. Our founders realized this and set balances in place.

I'm also looking at this from a perspective if something similar happens in the US. If things get much worse in DC, I would personally support the rights of conservative states to vote for independence. If they did, I would hope the army wouldn't be called in to prevent it.
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All of this has already happened here.
 
#4,591
#4,591
Burhead said:
Well I guess you Russophiles will get what you've wanted, there could be a "peace" deal by Friday. One that will forever change the boundaries of Ukraine and one that will legitimize use of force to change territorial borders.
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Peace for our time?

Damn that CIA coup! Damn it to hell, I say!
 
#4,594
#4,594
red butler said:
I acknowledge that if the referendum votes were fraudulent and the citizens were forced to vote for independence, then certainly the government should intervene.
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There doesn't have to be "fraud" for an election to not be a legitimate choice.

When gunmen seize control of a town and say they are holding an election, who's more likely to vote: people agreeing with the gunmen or people who disagree? And who is going to campaign on the other side?
 
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#4,595
#4,595
Velo Vol said:
There doesn't have to be "fraud" for an election to not be a legitimate choice.

When gunmen seize control of a town and say they are holding an election, who's more likely to vote: people agreeing with the gunmen or people who disagree? And who is going to campaign on the other side?
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True. I should have said if the referendums were illegitimate or did not reflect the desires of the affected citizens. But there was an 83% voter turnout in Crimea with 96.77% voting for independence so voters weren't discouraged from voting. We don't get a fraction of that turnout and most of our issues are decided on a vote of 51 to 49.
 
#4,596
#4,596
red butler said:
True. I should have said if the referendums were illegitimate or did not reflect the desires of the affected citizens. But there was an 83% voter turnout in Crimea with 96.77% voting for independence so voters weren't discouraged from voting. We don't get a fraction of that turnout and most of our issues are decided on a vote of 51 to 49.
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Here's an article that suggests otherwise, for what it's worth:

Putin's 'Human Rights Council' Accidentally Posts Real Crimean Election Results - Forbes

Also, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I apologize if I'm doing so. Please correct me if needed. But I've kind of gathered that you're like Rasputin (not as bad though) in that you unabashedly support the "self-determination" of ethnic Russians, yet simply cast the "self-determination" of ethnic Ukrainians as some sort of Western plot. (I don't think you're quite so sold on that as Rasputin, admittedly.) Further, you two (especially Ras) seem to support the self-determination of ethnic Russians in Ukraine yet act like Ukraine, well, it's a pseudo-state that really belongs to Russia anyhow, or at least did in the past. So, we don't really have any business there, while Russia does.

These are contradictory.

Like I said, if this is not what you think, then please clarify. I'll apologize as well. I am convinced, however, that this is what Rasputin thinks, and it makes no sense whatsoever.
 
#4,597
#4,597
Not really Ukrainian related but ISIS just released a statement threatening Russia and Putin.
 
#4,598
#4,598
Burhead said:
Not really Ukrainian related but ISIS just released a statement threatening Russia and Putin.
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Well, who haven't they threatened with the exception of South America apparently?

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. I've read that some of the higher echelon of ISIS strategic and military command is Chechen. Apparently the highest military commander among them, or at least one of them, is Chechen. Omar the Chechen, as he's called. Fairly young guy too.
 
#4,600
#4,600
Excluding how I feel about the Russians, they would be the last country I would go after. They would have no problem razing a city to the ground to show they mean business.
 
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