Ukraine Protests

[Coug]

CNN reporting 38 dead in Odessa fire. RT is claiming that pro-Russians were held up in the building and pro-Kiev protesters set fire to the building.

Today has been a very bad day. I think this is the tipping point.

So what, good for them. Russians shot down two of their helicopters.

Ukrainians should have fought back weeks ago. Even if you're out matched.

Someone's at your doorstep threatening to take your home, and your land, you shoot them in the face dammit.

 

[volprof]

Very few do. It was a dark time in their history. They gain independence after WWI and fight off Bolshevik intervention a few years as well as German mercs right after the war (something very few people realize is German units under White Russian joint operations with American and British approval operating there right after Armistice Day). They are played with by Bolsheviks until finally invasion in '40. Mass deportations of Latvians importations of Russians. Then the Nazis come in and round up leftists and Jews. Some Latvians join SS units only to fight Russians. Russians come back and overtake with no looking back until 1991. Sad thing is that guerillas fought the Soviets from 1944 to 1955 hoping the US would come and rescue them.

Their story is very common in Latvia unfortunately. And why most Latvians are terrified. There are a few Latvians longing for the Soviet days - lingering Communists but most hate anything to do with Russia and actually look down on the ethnic Russians living there.

You've read up on your Latvian history, sir.

 

[volprof]

So what, good for them. Russians shot down two of their helicopters.

Ukrainians should have fought back weeks ago. Even if you're out matched.

Someone's at your doorstep threatening to take your home, and your land, you shoot them in the face dammit.

I'm fascinated by war. Love reading about it, studying it, and watching documentaries/footage. As a child, I used to set up massive toy soldier installments across the entire living room. I would then go about dropping toy bombs on all of them.

All of that is one thing, however.

As John Donne said, "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind."

 

[Burhead]

So what, good for them. Russians shot down two of their helicopters.

Ukrainians should have fought back weeks ago. Even if you're out matched.

Someone's at your doorstep threatening to take your home, and your land, you shoot them in the face dammit.

Fight back with what military? It's underfunded, ill-equipped, and it's loyalties divided.

 

[Burhead]

Two Ukrainian paratroopers were killed via separatist counter-attack per MoD. Also rumors of emergency meeting at the Kremlin tonight.

 

[volprof]

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Many dead in government offensive

This video, at the very beginning. Is that a surface to air that is shoulder-launched? I don't know much about such things, but I swear that looks like a mobile armor fire. I've seen that Kiev has suggested such as well.

Anyone have any idea here?

Edit: You may have to deal with a 30 second ad, and even then, the video starts a little late. Just turn it back to the very beginning. Missile launch is at the very first.

 

[Burhead]

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Many dead in government offensive

This video, at the very beginning. Is that a surface to air that is shoulder-launched? I don't know much about such things, but I swear that looks like a mobile armor fire. I've seen that Kiev has suggested such as well.

Anyone have any idea here?

Edit: You may have to deal with a 30 second ad, and even then, the video starts a little late. Just turn it back to the very beginning. Missile launch is at the very first.

It's probably a Igla system if I had to guess.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Many of these "protesters" have better equipment and arms than the soldiers in the regular army. Russians have not done a very good job disguising this.

As for Latvian history I've become a student of history in this region. I took Russian in high school and college. I've traveled frequently to the region. Our company was involved in the Orange Revolution in 2004 in Kyiv.

A good movie to watch is called Rigas Sargi. It used to be on YouTube.

 

[Burhead]

Many of these "protesters" have better equipment and arms than the soldiers in the regular army. Russians have not done a very good job disguising this.

As for Latvian history I've become a student of history in this region. I took Russian in high school and college. I've traveled frequently to the region. Our company was involved in the Orange Revolution in 2004 in Kyiv.

A good movie to watch is called Rigas Sargi. It used to be on YouTube.

Good to see another poster interested in the for Soviet/Eastern bloc countries.

 

[CSpindizzy]

It's probably a Igla system if I had to guess.

Guessing the same.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Good to see another poster interested in the for Soviet/Eastern bloc countries.

Love the history, culture, military, food, etc. of this region. Most of my books and movie collection come from this region. What is your interest and where did it come from?

 

[Burhead]

Love the history, culture, military, food, etc. of this region. Most of my books and movie collection come from this region. What is your interest and where did it come from?

I just love history and politics. Always been fascinated by the Cold War so I just took it upon myself to study it and the former Warsaw Pact countries and such. I took a particular interest in the former Yugoslavia and Yugoslav wars.

 

[volprof]

It's probably a Igla system if I had to guess.

So you think maybe shoulder fired? I honestly don't know. It just seemed like it had a lot of "ummmphhh," as a mobile rocket system would.

You're probably right though. Otherwise, Western journalists would have probably documented the mobile air defense system on the ground.

I admit, I've never been in combat. Shocker, right? So, I don't know exactly how some of these firings look.

 

[Burhead]

So you think maybe shoulder fired? I honestly don't know. It just seemed like it had a lot of "ummmphhh," as a mobile rocket system would.

You're probably right though. Otherwise, Western journalists would have probably documented the mobile air defense system on the ground.

I admit, I've never been in combat. Shocker, right? So, I don't know exactly how some of these firings look.

It could be land based system but even with the help of Russia I don't there is a way for them to deploy those systems right now. Also this is very troubling;

myroslavapetsa 2h

#Odessa artist Alexander Roytburd writes on FB citing his source 15 killed in fire were Russia's nationals, 10 from Transnistria.

@Aureliano_no_24 · 16m

Russia MFA claiming a deal *had* been reached on OSCE crew but it fell through because "Pravy Sektor interfered" @ISNJH @HalpernAlex

@L0gg0l · 14m

RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY SAYS DEATHS IN ODESSA "CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY OF KIEV AUTHORITIES" (via @mchancecnn)

 

[Burhead]

Also sounds like fighting may have started in Kramatorsk as well. Looks like the Ukrainians have escalated their actions today.

 

[CSpindizzy]

It could be land based system but even with the help of Russia I don't there is a way for them to deploy those systems right now. Also this is very troubling;

myroslavapetsa 2h

#Odessa artist Alexander Roytburd writes on FB citing his source 15 killed in fire were Russia's nationals, 10 from Transnistria.

@Aureliano_no_24 · 16m

Russia MFA claiming a deal *had* been reached on OSCE crew but it fell through because "Pravy Sektor interfered" @ISNJH @HalpernAlex

@L0gg0l · 14m

RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY SAYS DEATHS IN ODESSA "CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY OF KIEV AUTHORITIES" (via @mchancecnn)

THIS will escalate the crisis even further. If Russian nationals were in the vicinity this proves direct involvement BUT it will be spun that these are innocents caught up in this crisis.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Come get you some good propaganda...

"According to Churkin, Russia insists external interference in what is happening in Ukraine should be avoided." ----ummm, yeah.

Russia insists foreign interference into Ukrainian events should be avoided - English pravda.ru

 

[volinbham]

Many of these "protesters" have better equipment and arms than the soldiers in the regular army. Russians have not done a very good job disguising this.

As a side note - it was a bit ironic that Obama was saying the story that these were protesters just doesn't hold water given the attack and equipment used...

 

[CSpindizzy]

As a side note - it was a bit ironic that Obama was saying the story that these were protesters just doesn't hold water given the attack and equipment used...

They were only protesters in response to an anti-Russian hate video made by an American pastor.

 

[volprof]

THIS will escalate the crisis even further. If Russian nationals were in the vicinity this proves direct involvement BUT it will be spun that these are innocents caught up in this crisis.

Russian nationals are all over the ground in Ukraine. Vice News actually got them to admit it. Not necessarily military (although I still think they are there), but even so:

https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-the-invasion-of-ukraine-dispatch-thirty

I'm not quite sure what the goober was trying to prove other than it wasn't "Spetsnaz here," but nonetheless. Clearly, Russian nationals are involved in this, and they have admitted as much.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Spetsnaz forces using Russian mafia as connections and muscle. Since the fall of the USSR, SVR and FSB use organized crime as the way in and work around from there. Special forces know-how, technology, weaponry, and cash coupled with the mafia's underground connections and black market.

 

[Coug]

Fight back with what military? It's underfunded, ill-equipped, and it's loyalties divided.

Whatever you got. I'm imagining it as if I'm in the same situation.

You only have two other options if you're not fighting and that's to wait it out until MAYBE the rest of the world steps in to help or concede and let Russia annex you forcefully.

I don't know all the history of Ukraine but why were they left so completely helpless? I realize they have no nukes but they could have a more substantial army at least and some kind of modern weaponry.

At least if the American government failed it sure wouldn't be an easy cake walk to take our land.

 

[Burhead]

Whatever you got. I'm imagining it as if I'm in the same situation.

You only have two other options if you're not fighting and that's to wait it out until MAYBE the rest of the world steps in to help or concede and let Russia annex you forcefully.

I don't know all the history of Ukraine but why were they left so completely helpless? I realize they have no nukes but they could have a more substantial army at least and some kind of modern weaponry.

At least if the American government failed it sure wouldn't be an easy cake walk to take our land.

Years of cutting the size of the Ukrainian military, the constant slashing of defense spending, corruption, and years of selling modern equipment to other countries and keeping dated and worn out equipment in service. Also the Ukrainian security services are heavily penetrated by Russian SVR & GRU intelligence operatives. The current state of the Ukrainian security apparatus was not by chance but a careful plan by the Kremlin and pro-Kremlin Ukrainians.

Not sure what the number is now, but at the start of this, Ukraine only had 6,000 combat ready personnel. The troops often lack modern weapons, blankets, food, uniforms, etc. The regime in Kiev has even asked the people to start donation drives for the military.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I don't know all the history of Ukraine but why were they left so completely helpless? I realize they have no nukes but they could have a more substantial army at least and some kind of modern weaponry.

At least if the American government failed it sure wouldn't be an easy cake walk to take our land.

When you have a pro-Russian president who is and has been in league with Moscow, you get this result. He has dumped on defense spending. No budget which means no upgrade on weapons, no training, and no maintenance of a sizable regular army. As I said earlier, all the makings of a deliberate attempt to weaken Ukraine to either be dependent on Russia OR be subverted by Russia - whichever way the people moved to. Yanukovich took what little money for the budget and pocketed it all or stashed it - $32 billion missing which is likely what is being used to pay for this little party in the east.

 

[Coug]

Years of cutting the size of the Ukrainian military, the constant slashing of defense spending, corruption, and years of selling modern equipment to other countries and keeping dated and worn out equipment in service. Also the Ukrainian security services are heavily penetrated by Russian SVR & GRU intelligence operatives. The current state of the Ukrainian security apparatus was not by chance but a careful plan by the Kremlin and pro-Kremlin Ukrainians.

Not sure what the number is now, but at the start of this, Ukraine only had 6,000 combat ready personnel. The troops often lack modern weapons, blankets, food, uniforms, etc. The regime in Kiev has even asked the people to start donation drives for the military.

When you have a pro-Russian president who is and has been in league with Moscow, you get this result. He has dumped on defense spending. No budget which means no upgrade on weapons, no training, and no maintenance of a sizable regular army. As I said earlier, all the makings of a deliberate attempt to weaken Ukraine to either be dependent on Russia OR be subverted by Russia - whichever way the people moved to. Yanukovich took what little money for the budget and pocketed it all or stashed it - $32 billion missing which is likely what is being used to pay for this little party in the east.

Quite the long term plan this has been. Sounds like if NATO doesn't step in Russia will most assuredly get a lot bigger.