Ukraine Protests

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#2,626
#2,626
#VFL__ said:
You don't think that if Ukraine asked the EU/usa to send in a small force along their troops on the border to detur an all out Russian incursion it wouldn't work?
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No because we don't have the stomach to do that and two you don't want to provoke the only country in the world that can wipe you off the map.
 
#2,627
#2,627
#VFL__ said:
And if you're not going to protect your buildings from armed Russian henchmen because Russia says not to; then you probably don't deserve to have a country.
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The Ukrainian military and security apparatus is heavily penetrated by Russian intelligence not to mention almost 20 years of neglect by the government, so the military isn't really up to the challenge of fighting both separatists and the Russians. The Kiev government has resorted to asking the people for donations to help invest in the military, that's how bad things are. You want to roll these guys up with little to no training and outdated equipment against the best formations the Russians have?

Second these "henchmen" are Russian FSB, Alfa, and Spetsnaz personnel. Not exactly your typical Russian conscript. I'm not sure what you want the Ukraine to do?
 
#2,628
#2,628
Burhead said:
No because we don't have the stomach to do that and two you don't want to provoke the only country in the world that can wipe you off the map.
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I think there are multiple countries that could end earth as we know it. It shouldn't keep us from stopping Putin's military conquests. If Russia wants to nuke us over telling them no, so be it. I have always thought our country polices the world in a lot of wrong ways, but this is clear cut in my eyes.

We probably need to push the restart button anyway. We have tv shows that make ppl like the kardashians famous. Only semi serious about the last paragraph
 
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#2,629
#2,629
Burhead said:
The Ukrainian military and security apparatus is heavily penetrated by Russian intelligence not to mention almost 20 years of neglect by the government, so the military isn't really up to the challenge of fighting both separatists and the Russians. The Kiev government has resorted to asking the people for donations to help invest in the military, that's how bad things are. You want to roll these guys up with little to no training and outdated equipment against the best formations the Russians have?

Second these "henchmen" are Russian FSB, Alfa, and Spetsnaz personnel. Not exactly your typical Russian conscript. I'm not sure what you want the Ukraine to do?
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Fight for their country or serve communist Russia. Like I said earlier though, this is were the EU has failed. Ukraine is not a member of the EU but definitely impacts the union in a variety of ways. It should foot the bill to save that nation.
 
#2,630
#2,630
#VFL__ said:
Fight for their country or serve communist Russia. Like I said earlier though, this is were the EU has failed. Ukraine is not a member of the EU but definitely impacts the union in a variety of ways. It should foot the bill to save that nation.
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Looks like you may get your wish for a shooting war. Protesters have once again returned to Kiev to demand the resignation of the government for inaction.
 
#2,631
#2,631
Getting kind of hawkish up in here.

Anyhow, can we put to bed the whole "Communist Russia" thing. Vlad is a fascist if ever I've seen one. Nothing communist about him. Clearly there is a "Soviet" nostalgia movement going on at the moment, but that does not a communist country make. And this weirdness is compounded by the fact that Russia is using the "Fascists are threatening our people" routine to get their way. But they are the fascists. Weird. Politics are weird. People are weird. Just weird. Weird stuff, man.
 
#2,632
#2,632
volprof said:
Getting kind of hawkish up in here.

Anyhow, can we put to bed the whole "Communist Russia" thing. Vlad is a fascist if ever I've seen one. Nothing communist about him. Clearly there is a "Soviet" nostalgia movement going on at the moment, but that does not a communist country make. And this weirdness is compounded by the fact that Russia is using the "Fascists are threatening our people" routine to get their way. But they are the fascists. Weird. Politics are weird. People are weird. Just weird. Weird stuff, man.
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VVP is more Czarist than Communist any ways.
 
#2,634
#2,634
Burhead said:
Looks like you may get your wish for a shooting war. Protesters have once again returned to Kiev to demand the resignation of the government for inaction.
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A bunch of neo-Nazi fascists thugs. Hitler has been sited on the ground.

-Rossiya 1
 
#2,635
#2,635
Burhead said:
VVP is more Czarist than Communist any ways.
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That's interesting that you said that, because I've been going over and over in my head whether Vlad is more neo-czarist or more neo-fascist. As odd as it sounds, it's probably a little of both. I watched a documentary the other day about him and his rise to power (I think I linked it a few pages back), and it discussed his youthful obsession with the Russian Empire and the czars. Makes sense. Whatever the case, he definitely ain't no communist.
 
#2,637
#2,637
I've said it before, but I'll say it again: this situation may or may not mean our military involvement. I highly doubt it would. What scares me the most is not Vlad or Vlad's Russia. He's a gooberhead, but I don't think even he is that stupid. What scares me the most is Russia after Vlad. The man has made that country into a nationalist/ultra-nationalist cesspool. Couple that with the demographic outlooks for that country (that have been corroborated by several analysts), and that will be one sort of mess in another generation or so. Declining Russian population, increasing Muslim populace, and one huge military. And nuclear weapons. Gonna be fun, gentleman. And by fun, I mean the opposite of fun.

Oh, and whining Russian population that wonders why the new leader isn't as "manly" as Vlad. Why don't you take your shirt off for photo ops, you patsy! sort of thing. There will probably be a leadership vacuum, as well as an economic decline, and those sorts of situations often breed civil wars.

Anyhow, I'm pessimistic Volprof today. Hopefully things won't turn out that way.
 
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#2,638
#2,638
Burhead said:
He does have point though, it will affect us when Putin starts messing with the Baltic states.
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It would certainly create a problematic dilemma if Russia messed with a NATO member.

But my point is that in the bigger strategic/economic picture, none of these countries has much direct impact on America.

We do much more trade with Taiwan, for example, than we do with Ukraine, Latvia, and whoever else.
 
#2,639
#2,639
Velo Vol said:
It would certainly create a problematic dilemma if Russia messed with a NATO member.

But my point is that in the bigger strategic/economic picture, none of these countries has much direct impact on America.

We do much more trade with Taiwan, for example, than we do with Ukraine, Latvia, and whoever else.
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I think including the Baltic states was a mistake. Shouldn't have done that. I don't really understand the reasoning behind it, quite frankly. Maybe Poland advocated for their inclusion (as a pivot) and won? No clue.
 
#2,641
#2,641
volprof said:
I think including the Baltic states was a mistake. Shouldn't have done that. I don't really understand the reasoning behind it, quite frankly. Maybe Poland advocated for their inclusion (as a pivot) and won? No clue.
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I would imagine it was designed at the time to further isolate and neuter Russia and further the spread of "goodness and light". Adding the Ukraine would have added to that.

Now, we see that this move may come back to bite us.
 
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#2,642
#2,642
I love the "people don't behave like this in the 21st Century" stuff.

Has he been to Chicago lately?
 
#2,644
#2,644
Velo Vol said:
Things are happening.
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Yep, I think our CIA director and others gave them some ideas on how to handle it. Now anyone that is in the area they are trying to take back will be directly involved with the Russians. No civilian casualties hopefully
 
#2,645
#2,645
#VFL__ said:
Yep, I think our CIA director and others gave them some ideas on how to handle it. Now anyone that is in the area they are trying to take back will be directly involved with the Russians. No civilian casualties hopefully
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Except they can't win...

Anyways so far the operation hasn't started yet, build up still going outside of the cities. Ukrainian forces at Kramatorsk Airfield engaged Russian forces they were trying to take the base.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOmAOJNmbiY[/youtube]

Sources claim a Ukrainian aircraft was shot down...
 
#2,646
#2,646
Burhead said:
Except they can't win...

Anyways so far the operation hasn't started yet, build up still going outside of the cities. Ukrainian forces at Kramatorsk Airfield engaged Russian forces they were trying to take the base.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/YOmAOJNmbiY[/youtube]

Sources claim a Ukrainian aircraft was shot down...
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Well that looked a little easy.
 
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#2,649
#2,649
Thing to watch for tomorrow is that the Ukrainian parliament is rumored to be having a closed doors session with the entire security apparatus. Not sure what time that is supposed to happen but afterwards is when we may start seeing the active phase of this "anti-terror" op start. Than again the government has issued and backed down from other threats before too. This one though seems different with the amount of military massing outside of these cities.
 
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