Ukraine Protests

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#5,801
#5,801
Velo Vol said:
Critics say the same about the United States.
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The biggest irony here?

The US spent billions to try to stabilize Iraq and exploited Iraq so hard that Iraq, in a sovereign act, decided to sign over the bulk of their oil field contracts to Russia and China. The US' 2 largest strategic opponents.

Compare that with Darfur and you have a direct difference in how the US does international relations and how China does.

The US going into Iraq was bad enough but we didn't incite a full on genocide in order to keep the area destabilized while our own companies and people were draining it of resources. A civil war erupted but that was more in spite of the US presence and it quickly multiplied soon after we left.

That's why people saying "US went into Iraq is the same as Ukraine". It isn't. The US never annexed Iraq and turned it over as a democratic state (albeit one that quickly fell). The Russians are just straight up land-grabbing and absorbing territories. They're using Hilters 1930s tactics straight out of his playbook. The world is willing to appease in a desperate attempt to avoid a large conflict.

The way the Chinese and Russians are acting, I fear it's only a matter of time. The Russians effectively ruined their economy as they were almost completely dependent on natural gas exports. And the Europeans are so tail-tucked I don't know that we can count on the rank-file Brit, French, Italian or German to hold up their end of the bargain.

I do fear for the Poles though. That poor nation can't catch a break.
 
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#5,802
#5,802
agent|orange said:
The biggest irony here?

The US spent billions to try to stabilize Iraq and exploited Iraq so hard that Iraq, in a sovereign act, decided to sign over the bulk of their oil field contracts to Russia and China. The US' 2 largest strategic opponents.

Compare that with Darfur and you have a direct difference in how the US does international relations and how China does.

The US going into Iraq was bad enough but we didn't incite a full on genocide in order to keep the area destabilized while our own companies and people were draining it of resources. A civil war erupted but that was more in spite of the US presence and it quickly multiplied soon after we left.

That's why people saying "US went into Iraq is the same as Ukraine". It isn't. The US never annexed Iraq and turned it over as a democratic state (albeit one that quickly fell). The Russians are just straight up land-grabbing and absorbing territories. They're using Hilters 1930s tactics straight out of his playbook. The world is willing to appease in a desperate attempt to avoid a large conflict.

The way the Chinese and Russians are acting, I fear it's only a matter of time. The Russians effectively ruined their economy as they were almost completely dependent on natural gas exports. And the Europeans are so tail-tucked I don't know that we can count on the rank-file Brit, French, Italian or German to hold up their end of the bargain.

I do fear for the Poles though. That poor nation can't catch a break.
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good post, i believe you are new to this thread so welcome and be prepared to be lambasted by a few of our fellow 'ukraine thread' crazies for saying anything positive about the US and foreign relations.

secondly i have said and will continue to say Putin has taken on a very Hitleresque policy of nation re-building.

I would agree with your feeling on how Europe would react, the eastern european countries would throw everything they had at Russia if Russia made it official, the rest of the continent.....
 
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#5,803
#5,803
agent|orange said:
The biggest irony here?

The US spent billions to try to stabilize Iraq and exploited Iraq so hard that Iraq, in a sovereign act, decided to sign over the bulk of their oil field contracts to Russia and China. The US' 2 largest strategic opponents.

Compare that with Darfur and you have a direct difference in how the US does international relations and how China does.

The US going into Iraq was bad enough but we didn't incite a full on genocide in order to keep the area destabilized while our own companies and people were draining it of resources. A civil war erupted but that was more in spite of the US presence and it quickly multiplied soon after we left.

That's why people saying "US went into Iraq is the same as Ukraine". It isn't. The US never annexed Iraq and turned it over as a democratic state (albeit one that quickly fell). The Russians are just straight up land-grabbing and absorbing territories. They're using Hilters 1930s tactics straight out of his playbook. The world is willing to appease in a desperate attempt to avoid a large conflict.

The way the Chinese and Russians are acting, I fear it's only a matter of time. The Russians effectively ruined their economy as they were almost completely dependent on natural gas exports. And the Europeans are so tail-tucked I don't know that we can count on the rank-file Brit, French, Italian or German to hold up their end of the bargain.

I do fear for the Poles though. That poor nation can't catch a break.
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While I think some of what you say here is a bit lambastic, you're pretty spot on.

I wish our foreign policy bunch could get things together so that Ras and Pacer's bunch could no longer manipulate US military lives and taxpayer dollars to drain more money out of local economies.

Given that we don't like them very much, I'm not quite sure why we've acted as Russia and China's veritable military wings the last decade or so, despite all the dumb protestations they have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't Chinese oil companies profited more from dead Iraqis and Americans than America has?
 
#5,804
#5,804
LouderVol said:
Would huge Nicaragua canal be win for China? (Opinion) - CNN.com

this article touches on how they are bringing in their own work force on what is mostly a 'shovel' job.
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It doesn't say how many. You wouldn't expect a Chinese project like that without bringing over personnel. Does that mean there will be no Nicaraguans dredging?

At any rate, I can see why some locals would be irritated.

agent|orange said:
The biggest irony here?

The US spent billions to try to stabilize Iraq and exploited Iraq so hard that Iraq, in a sovereign act, decided to sign over the bulk of their oil field contracts to Russia and China. The US' 2 largest strategic opponents.
Click to expand...

Link? [more information]
 
#5,805
#5,805
Velo Vol said:
It doesn't say how many. You wouldn't expect a Chinese project like that without bringing over personnel. Does that mean there will be no Nicaraguans dredging?

At any rate, I can see why some locals would be irritated.



Link? [more information]
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a very small number, i am trying to find the article I found a few months ago that went over how bad it was for the Nicaraguans. But work keeps getting in the way. :detective:
 
#5,806
#5,806
Velo Vol said:
It doesn't say how many. You wouldn't expect a Chinese project like that without bringing over personnel. Does that mean there will be no Nicaraguans dredging?

At any rate, I can see why some locals would be irritated.



Link? [more information]
Click to expand...

Here is a good article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/w...its-of-iraq-oil-boom.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And here U.S. Companies Shut Out as Iraq Auctions Its Oil Fields - TIME :

Not a single U.S. company secured a deal in the auction of contracts that will shape the Iraqi oil industry for the next couple of decades. Two of the most lucrative of the multi-billion-dollar oil contracts went to two countries which bitterly opposed the U.S. invasion — Russia and China
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Of course, that was voted on when Iraq was sovereign and before ISIS went full retard over there.
 
#5,807
#5,807
volprof said:
While I think some of what you say here is a bit lambastic, you're pretty spot on.

I wish our foreign policy bunch could get things together so that Ras and Pacer's bunch could no longer manipulate US military lives and taxpayer dollars to drain more money out of local economies.

Given that we don't like them very much, I'm not quite sure why we've acted as Russia and China's veritable military wings the last decade or so, despite all the dumb protestations they have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't Chinese oil companies profited more from dead Iraqis and Americans than America has?
Click to expand...

Correct. Our bludgeoning, short-sighted and arrogant foreign policies have played right into their hands. They just wait for the US to go full drunk guy at a bar and then they swoop in and take the girl home.

We've dumped trillions in and will get little back. Not to mention BRICS is doing everything it can to move away from the USD as the currency for global trade and are actually making headway.
 
#5,809
#5,809
agent|orange said:
Correct. Our bludgeoning, short-sighted and arrogant foreign policies have played right into their hands. They just wait for the US to go full drunk guy at a bar and then they swoop in and take the girl home.

We've dumped trillions in and will get little back. Not to mention BRICS is doing everything it can to move away from the USD as the currency for global trade and are actually making headway.
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Yeah, I'm pretty tired of this nonsense. I say establish our stakes with Saudi Arabia (bastards, but hey), the small Gulf states, Canada, and our own oil, and just let Russia and China pick up the slop. Their economies would take a serious hit.

We already know their militaries are completely inadequate for performing such tasks.
 
#5,810
#5,810
volprof said:
Yeah, I'm pretty tired of this nonsense. I say establish our stakes with Saudi Arabia (bastards, but hey), the small Gulf states, Canada, and our own oil, and just let Russia and China pick up the slop. Their economies would take a serious hit.

We already know their militaries are completely inadequate for performing such tasks.
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Or, conversely, we wean ourselves of a finite, polluting and volatile resource and incentivize engineering firms on improving renewables. We get our energy without destroying our nation in the process.

Really, that's a win/win/win. We can also sell these products to global economies and corner, if not be a major player in, the booming renewables market.
 
#5,811
#5,811
The Senate passed the Ukraine Freedom Support Act just now which names Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine as Major Non-NATO allies and paves the way for arms to be shipped to Ukraine. Also sets up additional programs to counter Russian propaganda in those regions as well. The House is expected to vote on it later today.
 
#5,812
#5,812
Burhead said:
The Senate passed the Ukraine Freedom Support Act just now which names Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine as Major Non-NATO allies and paves the way for arms to be shipped to Ukraine.
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Other MNNAs. But you don't have to be one to obtain American arms.

640px-American-MNNA-2007.svg.png
 
#5,813
#5,813
Uh oh. Clouds gathering over paradise.

Russia and Ukraine: Putin’s people

Over the past nine months opinion polls find that support for the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine have fallen from 74% to 23%. Many who dismissed Western sanctions as irrelevant now fret over Russia’s isolation. “The sanctions are working,” says Lev Gudkov, head of the Levada Centre, an independent pollster.
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#5,814
#5,814
LouderVol said:
At least we try to give back or make it worthwhile to the world that we are doing so thru our military.
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No we don't. We force them to walk with us and burden them with debt. If they decide that the deal we are offering is a bun deal and decide to elect a non-US friendly puppet, then we overthrow that leader or bomb them.
 
#5,815
#5,815
Burhead said:
The Senate passed the Ukraine Freedom Support Act just now which names Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine as Major Non-NATO allies and paves the way for arms to be shipped to Ukraine. Also sets up additional programs to counter Russian propaganda in those regions as well. The House is expected to vote on it later today.
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How in the world can you see pouring gas on a lit fire as progress? Arming Ukraine and Georgia?
 
#5,816
#5,816
Rasputin_Vol said:
No we don't. We force them to walk with us and burden them with debt. If they decide that the deal we are offering is a bun deal and decide to elect a non-US friendly puppet, then we overthrow that leader or bomb them.
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That's a small percentage. Doesn't happen in south america, central america, SE Asia, and I can go on. You whole premise is based in Iraq and Afghanistan. International trade and development helps these countries develop. It brings in businesses that help too develop their resources. Not every international trade agreement with the US is predicated with military involvement. If the region is unstable, we seek to improve the security situation for the region. We don't annex like Russia does.
 
#5,818
#5,818
SergeantVol said:
Wouldn't be a problem in the first place if Russia and its military wasn't involved. You accuse the US of doing this but its OK for Russia to?
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It is of strategic importance to Russia when you consider that these countries border them... We didn't like it when Russia was putting arms in Cuba or the Germans/Zimmerman rubbing shoulders with Mexico.
 
#5,821
#5,821
Rasputin_Vol said:
No we don't. We force them to walk with us and burden them with debt. If they decide that the deal we are offering is a bun deal and decide to elect a non-US friendly puppet, then we overthrow that leader or bomb them.
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Hamid Karzai laughs at you.
 
#5,822
#5,822
volprof said:
Hamid Karzai laughs at you.
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You mean the guy the US set up that basically said "US GTFO"?

Lets ignore that he was actually set up by the UN through the Bonn Agreement of a panel of 30 members who were mostly Tajik or Pashtun and Karzai himself was largely uncooperative against the ISAF (since the mission in Afghanistan was largely US but was actually an international mission backed by multiple UNSC resolutions) in the late stages of the UN's mission in Afghanistan.

If he's a US puppet, the US is the worst puppeteer in the history of mankind.
 
#5,823
#5,823
agent|orange said:
You mean the guy the US set up that basically said "US GTFO"?

Lets ignore that he was actually set up by the UN through the Bonn Agreement of a panel of 30 members who were mostly Tajik or Pashtun and Karzai himself was largely uncooperative against the ISAF (since the mission in Afghanistan was largely US but was actually an international mission backed by multiple UNSC resolutions) in the late stages of the UN's mission in Afghanistan.

If he's a US puppet, the US is the worst puppeteer in the history of mankind.
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This.
 
#5,824
#5,824
SergeantVol said:
Gimme something post 60s or I will start listing all the countries Russia has conquered from Peter the Great on.
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Read this quote on IMF operations by former World Bank chief economist Joseph Stiglitz and tell me you can't see these types of operations happening all over the world today.

The first step includes privatization of state-owned industries and assets. The second step is capital market liberalization, which “allows investment capital to flow in and out,” though as he put it, “the money often simply flows out.” As Stiglitz explained, speculative cash flows into countries, and when there are signs of trouble it flows out dramatically in a matter of days, at which point the IMF demands the countries raise interest rates as high as 30% to 80%, further wrecking the economy.

At this point comes step three, called “market-based pricing,” in which prices get raised on food, water and cooking gas, leading to what Stiglitz calls “Step-Three-and-a-Half: the IMF riot.” When a nation is “down and out, [the IMF] squeezes the last drop of blood out of them. They turn up the heat until, finally, the whole cauldron blows up.” This process is always anticipated by the IMF and World Bank, which have even noted in various internal documents that their programs for countries could be expected to spark “social unrest.”


And finally comes step four, “free trade,” meaning that highly protectionist trade rules go into effect under supervision of the World Bank and World Trade Organization.
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You could argue that the IMF/World bank are not US government institutions... but with recent actions, it would be hard to argue the US government doesn't work for these banking cartels.
 
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