Ukraine Protests

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#3,376
#3,376
Meanwhile,

Defying Russian warnings, Moldova and Georgia head for EU pact

With Moldova and Georgia harboring pro-Russian breakaway enclaves themselves within their borders - all of which are hankering after union with Russia and look askance on EU association - both states have valid grounds for concern from a Russian response to the June 27 signature.

"I am afraid Russia may create some problems in Georgia before the signing. We need to be very careful this month. The Russians did it many times before," said Guram Chichinadze, a 57-year-old businessman, sipping coffee downtown in Tbilisi.
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#3,378
#3,378
Burhead said:
Russia really needs to realize they are no longer the Soviet Union and remember they don't control the former republics any longer.
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It's Putin, there is no realization to be had. He needs to be shown and nobody is willing to take the chance.
 
#3,379
#3,379
Ukraine to Close Eastern Border With Russia: Reports

Ukraine plans to close the border with Russia in the east, Anton Gerashchenko, an aide to the Ukrainian interior minister told Ukrainian TV “Channel 5” Wednesday.

“Various means should be considered but, of course, the border will be closed immediately. Necessary tools and methods are being provided for that,” he said.

Earlier Ukrainian authorities decided to partly close the border in the east of the country, where a military operation against freedom supporters continues. Currently eight border crossing checkpoints are closed.
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"Freedom supporters."
 
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#3,380
#3,380
Interesting piece on the propaganda war. It answers my earlier question on who Euromaidan PR is

Can Ukraine Win Its Information War With Russia? - Peter Pomerantsev - The Atlantic

Euromaidan PR (the PR stands for Public Responsibility), founded during the protests that ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, consists of some 200 English-speaking volunteers in Ukraine and abroad. These volunteers, who range from geologists to restaurant owners, debunk Russian disinformation on Facebook (24,000 followers), Twitter (35,000 followers), and the organization's blog (13,000 views per day). In March, for instance, the group circulated photos that, according to Russian media, showed columns of refugees fleeing Ukraine to Russia. The pictures actually depicted everyday traffic between Ukraine and Poland.

“We’re basically translators and editors. We see something in Russian propaganda and react,” said Alya Shandra, the 29-year-old coordinator of Euromaidan PR, as we lunched on soup in Kiev. During the protests, Shandra left her job at the Kiev Bicycle Association to run the site, and sometimes spends up to 18 hours a day on the project. “We don’t trust the big Ukrainian TV stations and rely on smaller, independent sources like Ukrayinska Pravda or Hromadske TV to check our information,” she explained. Most of the larger Ukrainian TV stations are owned by oligarchs, each pursuing his own agenda, and their commitment to objective information is questionable.
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Talk about Western countries "orchestrating events" in Ukraine--I imagine this is one area they are "helping" behind the scenes.
 
#3,381
#3,381
Rasputin_Vol said:
So at the very least, you admit that it looks fishy?
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If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...
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If by "fishy," you mean the US working covertly behind the scenes to create the Maidan revolution, dispose Yany, and install its own puppet regime, then the answer is no.

If by "fishy," you mean these recent US actions give more fodder for the conspiracy theorists, then the answer is yes.
 
#3,382
#3,382
Velo Vol said:
She might not necessarily be the State Department face you want there, but what's the fundamental issue?

What if Kerry was there instead?
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Yeah, I see your point, although I don't think Kerry's name in particular has been bantered around as much by the conspiracy theorists. I just think it looks bad on our part. From reading articles by and comments posted by members of the pro-Russian/Russian (seem the same to me, quite frankly) ranks I've noticed many are marked by a bevy of conspiracy theories. This just gives them more fodder, whether or not it's accurate.
 
#3,383
#3,383
volprof said:
Yeah, I see your point, although I don't think Kerry's name in particular has been bantered around as much by the conspiracy theorists. I just think it looks bad on our part. From reading articles by and comments posted by members of the pro-Russian/Russian (seem the same to me, quite frankly) ranks I've noticed many are marked by a bevy of conspiracy theories. This just gives them more fodder, whether or not it's accurate.
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The people who believe Washington is conducting puppet theatre in Kyiv are going to believe that no matter what we do at this stage, methinks. Nuland or no Nuland.
 
#3,387
#3,387
There''s speculation at Reddit that those tanks might be ones the separatists seized earlier from Ukraine.
 
#3,388
#3,388
@MaximEristavi 1m

Looks like Ukraine-Russia gas talks have collapsed. Ukraine braces for a cutoff on Monday, the 1st one in 5 years
 
#3,389
#3,389
Velo Vol said:
There''s speculation at Reddit that those tanks might be ones the separatists seized earlier from Ukraine.
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In a BBC article I read this morning, the rebels admitted to the tanks being there, and one rebel stated that they had obtained them through a warehouse storage. Only question is: where was the warehouse? It could very well be that they actually got them in Ukraine though, and Kiev is either trying to do a "gotcha, Russia" thing or honestly believes they came from Russia, whether true or not.
 
#3,392
#3,392
VolsNSkinsFan said:
Tom Jamieson's Photos Of Euromaidan Protesters Weapons - Business Insider
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Quite a bit of difference between those weapons and tanks, isn't there? Although I do admire the ingenuity. Never really thought about duct-taping a hook to a club and attaching a heavy, metal object to it. Good to know.

Anyhow, this, for me, is what separates the Maidan from eastern Ukraine. Although I'm sure it got some outside encouragement, the Maidan appears to have been a popular insurrection against a truly corrupt govt. Eastern Ukraine, on the other hand, appears to be a popular or not insurrection against a govt. that wasn't even given a chance in the first place. A popular insurrection that claims that fascist hordes are coming for blood, yet has no tangible proof, other than a few errant shells (something that happens in war regardless, even though unfortunate).

This is primarily way I have not and most likely never will buy the pro-Russian (aka, Moscow) narrative of these events. I just can't help thinking that this is FSB, Kremlin bull**** going on in the East, whether or not Russian regulars or special ops are on the ground there.
 
#3,393
#3,393
volprof said:
Quite a bit of difference between those weapons and tanks, isn't there? Although I do admire the ingenuity. Never really thought about duct-taping a hook to a club and attaching a heavy, metal object to it. Good to know.

Anyhow, this, for me, is what separates the Maidan from eastern Ukraine. Although I'm sure it got some outside encouragement, the Maidan appears to have been a popular insurrection against a truly corrupt govt. Eastern Ukraine, on the other hand, appears to be a popular or not insurrection against a govt. that wasn't even given a chance in the first place. A popular insurrection that claims that fascist hordes are coming for blood, yet has no tangible proof, other than a few errant shells (something that happens in war regardless, even though unfortunate).

This is primarily way I have not and most likely never will buy the pro-Russian (aka, Moscow) narrative of these events. I just can't help thinking that this is FSB, Kremlin bull**** going on in the East, whether or not Russian regulars or special ops are on the ground there.
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You would think if EuroMadian were some vast Western conspiracy they'd give them guns instead of home made weapons amirite?
 
#3,395
#3,395
I just wonder what Putin's end game is here. It's fairly clear to me at least that his regime has stirred up the ****storm in the East, at least to a point where reconciliation is no longer possible. He's withdrawn his troops though and no longer seems interested in invading and doesn't seem interested in annexing the territory any time soon. And yet, the trouble keeps stirring and Russia doesn't seem too intent on stopping it. That border is more porous than a Sal Sunseri defense.

Honestly, what's the end game? What's the strategy? It's clear he's content with Ukrainian instability, but what's the long-term point? Is he simply hoping to destabilize the country so much that it will never really be worth anything to the EU and then maybe comes crawling back for Russian alms after EU rejection? Is he hoping that the rebellion in the East will continue for so long that Kiev just concedes the territory to Russia? (I think it's fairly obvious to everyone that Kiev is incapable of putting this rebellion down without running roughshod all over the place, in which case, Vlad would act.)

What the hell is going on? This is one of the more baffling geopolitical crises I've ever witnessed.
 
#3,396
#3,396
volprof said:
I just wonder what Putin's end game is here. It's fairly clear to me at least that his regime has stirred up the ****storm in the East, at least to a point where reconciliation is no longer possible. He's withdrawn his troops though and no longer seems interested in invading and doesn't seem interested in annexing the territory any time soon. And yet, the trouble keeps stirring and Russia doesn't seem too intent on stopping it. That border is more porous than a Sal Sunseri defense.

Honestly, what's the end game? What's the strategy? It's clear he's content with Ukrainian instability, but what's the long-term point? Is he simply hoping to destabilize the country so much that it will never really be worth anything to the EU and then maybe comes crawling back for Russian alms after EU rejection? Is he hoping that the rebellion in the East will continue for so long that Kiev just concedes the territory to Russia? (I think it's fairly obvious to everyone that Kiev is incapable of putting this rebellion down without running roughshod all over the place, in which case, Vlad would act.)

What the hell is going on? This is one of the more baffling geopolitical crises I've ever witnessed.
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Probably the first idea you suggested. Make them unattractive to the EU/NATO.
 
#3,398
#3,398
Burhead said:
Ukrainian military plane shot down, source says; at least 49 aboard - CNN.com

A Ukrainian Ilyushin-76 transport plane was shot down today over Luhansk, it was carrying 49 paratroopers.
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Good god. I seriously don't know how this will end, like we were discussing in the posts before. This is almost like some sort of Middle East crisis minus the religious fundamentalism. There doesn't seem to be any end in sight.

Here's my current score card, as far as the politics are concerned.

Putin: 1 (Instability in Ukraine. Stop the EU drive east, at least for the time being.)
US: 1 (Russian economy seems to be going down the tank, sanctions or not. Further, Kiev seems irrevocably linked to the West now.)
Ukraine: 0 (Seem to be in a no-win situation at the moment.)
EU: Who gives a ****.
 
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