To Protect and to Serve...

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#1,803
#1,803
Grand Vol said:
No, I didn't miss your point at all. And there are huge differences in active shooter takedowns and an ambush situation. You keep falling back on your infantry training and it's like comparing apples to giraffes. Does...not...apply.

You talk about how piss poor their training is, but you can't tell me exactly what that training consists of. As a matter of fact, it's a sign of a well disciplined team to have those members continue to face outward which keeping their weapons at the ready. Threat or no threat, they are doing the same thing each and every time no matter what. And I'd guarantee you if they took rounds that stone wall would quickly become a friend. But the point you miss, willfully so, is the fact they train a certain way and perform that training in a real world application regardless of circumstances. If you were infantry, you'd know that any squad or platoon leader would love to have a whole group of guys that did exactly what they were trained to do the first time they had to apply it for real.
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I guarantee you that if they took rounds, 1 or 2 of them would be hit before they could get behind that wall.
 
#1,804
#1,804
Grand Vol said:
You and Hog are saying the same thing. But I'll ask this, if the military is moving through an urban area with the potential to run into an armed individual, do they continue to keep their weapons at the low ready? I know you know the answer and you know I do as well.

Point is, this umbrella guy got called in as having a long gun. Probably by a person who could identify a long gun two out of hundred times if he was lucky, but the call came in nonetheless. And in a situation like this you don't know if there's one or more. And you always go in on the assumption that there is "more" than the one. So to be ready while others on your team lowers their own weapons to search said individual is the method of training and response. And this team, other than the finger on the trigger faux pas, looked like many others that have done the same thing for years. Do I support it? Yes as a matter of fact I do. Because if there is more than one out there and they managed to start picking off a team, would you rather them not to be in a position to immediately react? How long does it take you to get from a low ready to a position of engagement?

It's the way they are trained. Have been trained and probably will continue to be trained. There are no sinister "intimidation tactics" at work here. It's performing said training in a real scenario. Go look at any pictures of a tactical team and the way they form up on security halts or taking a perp into custody. I'd almost be willing to bet they are almost identical to what you see in that picture.
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I'll admit that back then we were not trained to keep at the low ready in mout. However, depending on threat level we were trained to move in either a traveling or bounding overwatch, using cover.
 
#1,805
#1,805
hog88 said:
I guarantee you that if they took rounds, 1 or 2 of them would be hit before they could get behind that wall.
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And being that they are already up and addressing any potential threat, there is even money on who gets the first shot off.

This works both ways.
 
#1,808
#1,808
hog88 said:
I'll admit that back then we were not trained to keep at the low ready in mout. However, depending on threat level we were trained to move in either a traveling or bounding overwatch, using cover.
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There have been massive changes since that time. York is correct in the fact that during normal presence operations weapons are kept muzzle down as not to provoke a confrontation.

But on the flip side, if contact is expected, weapons will be pointed downrange.
 
#1,809
#1,809
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Sure thing.

Clint Smith on Gun Safety - YouTube
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So tell me this slick. When you go into a crowded urban environment where hostiles are mixed with innocents are you going to go up and over the targets you don't want to shoot?

The answer is no. Your muzzle continues right through that innocent until you get on target and then engage. You will get flagged repeatedly.
 
#1,810
#1,810
Grand Vol said:
So tell me this slick. When you go into a crowded urban environment where hostiles are mixed with innocents are you going to go up and over the targets you don't want to shoot?

The answer is no. Your muzzle continues right through that innocent until you get on target and then engage. You will get flagged repeatedly.
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Haha seems you should watch the video again.
 
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#1,811
#1,811
I may not be a expert ultra cool tactical swat guy, but I do know that in tense situations the last thing I'd want to do is have my weapon pointed at innocents with my damn finger on the trigger. Anyone that advocates such for Leo should immediately lose credibility.
 
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#1,812
#1,812
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Haha seems you should watch the video again.
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Watched it a long time ago.

Don't even get into this with me. You damn well know I know my ****. And in a crowded urban environment, you will, repeat WILL end up flagging non-targets. You can play by your Marquess of Queensberry rules against paper targets all day long. But when push comes to shove, you will not be taking the time to raise your muzzle over innocents to get to the perps.
 
#1,813
#1,813
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
I may not be a expert ultra cool tactical swat guy, but I do know that in tense situations the last thing I'd want to do is have my weapon pointed at innocents with my damn finger on the trigger. Anyone that advocates such for Leo should immediately lose credibility.
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Perhaps that's because you lack the confidence and training to do so.

And you lose.
 
#1,814
#1,814
Grand Vol said:
Perhaps that's because you lack the confidence and training to do so.

And you lose.
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I dare say the 4 firearm rules have saved millions of lives over the years. They may seem uncool to some but they have their place, and they DO NOT change.

1. Treat all guns as if they're loaded
2. Keep your bugger hook off the bang switch
3. Don't point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy.
4. Know your target, and what is behind it.
 
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#1,815
#1,815
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
I dare say the 4 firearm rules have saved millions of lives over the years. They may seem uncool to some but they have their place, and they DO NOT change.

1. Treat all guns as if they're loaded
2. Keep your bugger hook off the bang switch
3. Don't point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy.
4. Know your target, and what is behind it.
Click to expand...

So you self admittedly have never gone through any close quarters training?

They are very good rules of the range. But in a split second, life and death situation, you are not, NOT going to raise or lower your muzzle over a hostage target to get to the bad guy. You will flag innocents. It is UNAVOIDABLE. Because the time you take raising and lowering your weapon, getting back on target and engaging will be precisely the same amount of time the target, who cares not about flagging innocents, will have already fired at you.
 
#1,816
#1,816
hog88 said:
I'll admit that back then we were not trained to keep at the low ready in mout. However, depending on threat level we were trained to move in either a traveling or bounding overwatch, using cover.
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As a reminder, I believe the SOP back in your day (and the beginning of mine as well) was to hurl a grenade through an open window and spray the interior with burst/auto before entry.

Brief nostalgic moment of dangling on a rope trying to pull the pin on a grenade and toss it in that second floor window in the MOUT village lol
 
#1,817
#1,817
Grand Vol said:
So you self admittedly have never gone through any close quarters training?

They are very good rules of the range. But in a split second, life and death situation, you are not, NOT going to raise or lower your muzzle over a hostage target to get to the bad guy. You will flag innocents. It is UNAVOIDABLE. Because the time you take raising and lowering your weapon, getting back on target and engaging will be precisely the same amount of time the target, who cares not about flagging innocents, will have already fired at you.
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I've had a training class or two.
Gunsite
Magpul dynamics
Thunder Ranch
Shootrite academy

You seriously need to rethink this man. If you've been trained this way then please advise, so I will not attend this instructor and waste my money.

You don't point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy period. Those rules do not change.

The only time I can see what you're advocating is when you know the threat and have him/her in your sights and a clear line of sight.
 
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#1,818
#1,818
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
I've had a training class or two.
Gunsite
Magpul dynamics
Thunder Ranch
Shootrite academy

You seriously need to rethink this man. If you've been trained this way then please advise, so I will not attend this instructor and waste my money.

You don't point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy period. Those rules do not change.

The only time I can see what you're advocating is when you know the threat and have him/her in your sights and a clear line of sight.
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You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Two day entry class taught by members of the Denver FBI Regional SWAT
Colorado Springs SWAT taught a three day class in dynamic entry/room clearing
Army SRT week long school Mobile Training Team

I too can list classes.
 
#1,819
#1,819
Grand Vol said:
As a reminder, I believe the SOP back in your day (and the beginning of mine as well) was to hurl a grenade through an open window and spray the interior with burst/auto before entry.

Brief nostalgic moment of dangling on a rope trying to pull the pin on a grenade and toss it in that second floor window in the MOUT village lol
Click to expand...

We did that and more advanced, in the tire house we did selective fire drills.
 
#1,821
#1,821
Grand Vol said:
You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Two day entry class taught by members of the Denver FBI Regional SWAT
Colorado Springs SWAT taught a three day class in dynamic entry/room clearing
Army SRT week long school Mobile Training Team

I too can list classes.
Click to expand...

What'd they do when you swept a head?
 
#1,823
#1,823
hog88 said:
What'd they do when you swept a head?
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Depends on the course. CSPD and SRT were taught center mass first and adjust to head if no center mass shot was viable. And always check hands first. Don't recall in the FBI course if it was covered.
 
#1,825
#1,825
Grand Vol said:
You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Two day entry class taught by members of the Denver FBI Regional SWAT
Colorado Springs SWAT taught a three day class in dynamic entry/room clearing
Army SRT week long school Mobile Training Team

I too can list classes.
Click to expand...
Ok, just be sure you don't slip and fall with your finger on the trigger. lulz

I listed the classes as you made the assumption that I've never had training. I spent the better part of my late 20's and 30's attending training classes. Doesn't make me right, but i do know common sense when I hear it.
As a team member, I'd say your heart will be pumping a mile a minute, the last thing you want in that instance is a sympathetic hand movement on the trigger. Possibly shooting a fellow team member or an innocent. That leads to paperwork, cops don't like paperwork right?
 
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