To Protect and to Serve II

[Rasputin_Vol]

Agreed, although if I take someone to jail whom I've arrested with a lot of dope on them, and thousands of dollars in cash, I wouldn't feel bad in the slightest of seizing their cash.

I've never actually done it, for the record.

What proof do you have that the money is related to drug activity? Or even if some of it was, how do you know how much is drug related and how much is from other sources? And more to the point, unless the money was stolen from someone or part of a con/racket. Why do you need to confiscate any of it? The money was made through a mutual exchange, not violence or theft.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'm fine with that. But...the really smart crooks (cartels, organized crime, major types) are smart enough to know to move or liquidate everything after they're arrested, and hence...nothing to seize or forfeit upon conviction.

Hence the key difference between "seizure" and "forfeiture".

So how do you (a) hold the really nasty guys accountable, and (b) not screw over the little guy, or the innocent one?

And therein lies the rub. Asset forfeiture hinges on...depends upon...and relies upon accurate, detailed, and mature examination of all of the factors. And we all know....not much of that running around in our noble government, right?

In the end, it's always better to let a bad guy walk away rather than to hurt the good guy. Is there a fix, or a middle ground? Probably. But I'm not smart enough to figure it out, so I'll leave that to you sophisticates.

You just tell me what I can and can't do. I stay within the rules.

The problem is that it usually isn't the kingpins getting caught up in these LEO shakedowns, but immigrants from Albania or ordinary people with a large amount of cash for whatever reason.

 

[Cdywolfe]

I'm fine with that. But...the really smart crooks (cartels, organized crime, major types) are smart enough to know to move or liquidate everything after they're arrested, and hence...nothing to seize or forfeit upon conviction.

Hence the key difference between "seizure" and "forfeiture".

So how do you (a) hold the really nasty guys accountable, and (b) not screw over the little guy, or the innocent one?

And therein lies the rub. Asset forfeiture hinges on...depends upon...and relies upon accurate, detailed, and mature examination of all of the factors. And we all know....not much of that running around in our noble government, right?

In the end, it's always better to let a bad guy walk away rather than to hurt the good guy. Is there a fix, or a middle ground? Probably. But I'm not smart enough to figure it out, so I'll leave that to you sophisticates.

You just tell me what I can and can't do. I stay within the rules.

I’m sure it comes as no shock that if it were up to me we’d simply do away with and that’d solve the problem. But knowing that isn’t gonna happen, I feel like the solution is simple. Hold the departments/officers that abuse it accountable. Tell them they can do it but when they do, they damn well better be able to present a reasonable argument that’s backed with evidence that this property is linked to criminal activity. If they can’t do that then they better not take it or be prepared to face consequences.

Also I’d like to see a rule saying that if charges aren’t filed within 24 hours the property is immediately returned. Forget a conviction... Far too many of these cases involve situations where charges where never filed and the property was never returned. File charges immediately or give it back with an apology.

It’s also a huge conflict of interest how much of it ends up getting funneled to the department that took it. Anybody with an IQ above 70 can see how that’s just begging for corruption and abuse.

 

[ob79]

What proof do you have that the money is related to drug activity? Or even if some of it was, how do you know how much is drug related and how much is from other sources? And more to the point, unless the money was stolen from someone or part of a con/racket. Why do you need to confiscate any of it? The money was made through a mutual exchange, not violence or theft.

You've always operated under this narrative that drug dealing is not only legal but ok. I've worked 3 OD's this week alone, you're never going to convince me that anything other than weed should be legal (which I do...legalize it and tax the sh!t out of it). I'm not going down this rabbit hole either, we've had this conversation before and neither of us are going to budge.

And if the person whose money is seized wishes to provide proof that he obtained this money through legal means, it's rightfully theirs and therefore should be returned.

 

[ob79]

Remember, "seizure" and "forfeiture" are two different things. I've seized a lot of cash on stops and warrant service where I found enough drugs to keep Neyland Stadium stoned for a month.

And believe it or not, we ended up giving some...maybe 30%?...of it back because we could not positively connect it to the criminal activity.

Remember, we only catch the dumb ones.

You're right. My bad.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

I’m sure it comes as no shock that if it were up to me we’d simply do away with and that’d solve the problem. But knowing that isn’t gonna happen, I feel like the solution is simple. Hold the departments/officers that abuse it accountable. Tell them they can do it but when they do, they damn well better be able to present a reasonable argument that’s backed with evidence that this property is linked to criminal activity. If they can’t do that then they better not take it or be prepared to face consequences.

Also I’d like to see a rule saying that if charges aren’t filed within 24 hours the property is immediately returned. Forget a conviction... Far too many of these cases involve situations where charges where never filed and the property was never returned. File charges immediately or give it back with an apology.

It’s also a huge conflict of interest how much of it ends up getting funneled to the department that took it. Anybody with an IQ above 70 can see how that’s just begging for corruption and abuse.

The department that took the money should have to appear before a judge within 24 hours and show proof that the money is linked to criminal activity. If not it should be returned immediately with interest.

 

[Biopsyman]

Is this FBI guy in jail for randomly shooting people? What a world class dbag.

Should be his dance moves alone

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You've always operated under this narrative that drug dealing is not only legal but ok. I've worked 3 OD's this week alone, you're never going to convince me that anything other than weed should be legal (which I do...legalize it and tax the sh!t out of it). I'm not going down this rabbit hole either, we've had this conversation before and neither of us are going to budge.

And if the person whose money is seized wishes to provide proof that he obtained this money through legal means, it's rightfully theirs and therefore should be returned.

I think the legalization of drugs or legalization of certain drugs is a separate debate. I guess my point is why is money even being confiscated when it is highly likely that it was not stolen but obtained through fair commerce. I have no issue with the state returning property to the rightful owner. I'm just wondering why there is a need to keep property that isn't obtained through guile or theft.

 

[ob79]

I think the legalization of drugs of legalization of certain drugs is a separate debate. I guess my point is why is money even being confiscated when it is highly likely that it was not stolen but obtained through fair commerce. I have no issue with the state returning property to the rightful owner. I'm just wondering why there is a need to keep property that isn't obtained through guile or theft.

It's my bad. I got asset forfeiture and seizure mixed up.

 

[Cdywolfe]

You've always operated under this narrative that drug dealing is not only legal but ok. I've worked 3 OD's this week alone, you're never going to convince me that anything other than weed should be legal (which I do...legalize it and tax the sh!t out of it). I'm not going down this rabbit hole either, we've had this conversation before and neither of us are going to budge.

And if the person whose money is seized wishes to provide proof that he obtained this money through legal means, it's rightfully theirs and therefore should be returned.

I can’t tell you how many patients I’ve taken care of who’ve overdosed on legit prescription opiates, yet I don’t see swat teams raiding the Walgreens at 3 am and buying new police cruisers with the money they find in the registers. So let’s please not pretend like this has anything to do with public safety.

 

[GreyWolf1129]

Ras, Cdy, and others who may not like the laws in effect...and those who are charged with enforcing them...but are capable of having a mature discussion about it: I get where you're coming from. In some cases, I agree with you, and in others, I don't. We're seeing the same issues from different perspectives. Weed, for example. I was dead set against it for decades. Gateway drug. Reefer Madness. Stoners all over the place.

And yet...it has a valid medical use. Unlike tobacco and alcohol, which are legal.

And so, over time, I came around. Legalize it. Prescribe it as a medical narcotic. Change the Schedule rating. Sell it through licensed outlets, same as alcohol and tobacco.

The flip side is the inevitable stoned drivers, black market dumps into legalized states, unlicensed sellers, etc. So while it solves some problems, it creates others. But if the pros outweigh the cons, then figure it out.

As I've said many times, somebody smarter than I am needs to figure it all out. When you're done, give me the rules we're all living by. Protect and Serve. For me, it is literally that simple.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Fair enough and I agree, better to have some bad guys get off than screw over 1 innocent.

Only way I know how to fix it is to do away with it.

These cases that have been posted here where 2 guys are driving across Nebraska or Iowa with 15k in cash and it gets confiscated in a traffic stop for speeding...those cops should be fired and so should their supervisor that is OK with it. 2 guys in a car with 10 or 15k scream that they were going to buy a car, truck, camper etc... or the old man that was in Florida I believe and had his life's savings, like 40 or 45k in cash, taken from him at A greyhound station if memory serves...because he couldn't immediately "prove " where the money came from...why should any citizen have to prove where their money came from? That's nobody elses business. The framers of our constitution would be ready to revolt over this policy, literally revolt. Much worse than taxation sans representation...strong arm robbery by the state on private citizens. I.didnt know that CAF was a thing until i saw it posted here, still have trouble believing it actually happens...shameful.

And FTR, I dont bash LEO , here or elsewhere. It's a dirty job, and most cops are good cops.

This robbery is bullcrap, though...and I would be very disappointed and completely stop respecting any officers involved with taking people's money and assets without a conviction.

 

[Cdywolfe]

Ras, Cdy, and others who may not like the laws in effect...and those who are charged with enforcing them...but are capable of having a mature discussion about it: I get where you're coming from. In some cases, I agree with you, and in others, I don't. We're seeing the same issues from different perspectives. Weed, for example. I was dead set against it for decades. Gateway drug. Reefer Madness. Stoners all over the place.

And yet...it has a valid medical use. Unlike tobacco and alcohol, which are legal.

And so, over time, I came around. Legalize it. Prescribe it as a medical narcotic. Change the Schedule rating. Sell it through licensed outlets, same as alcohol and tobacco.

The flip side is the inevitable stoned drivers, black market dumps into legalized states, unlicensed sellers, etc. So while it solves some problems, it creates others. But if the pros outweigh the cons, then figure it out.

As I've said many times, somebody smarter than I am needs to figure it all out. When you're done, give me the rules we're all living by. Protect and Serve. For me, it is literally that simple.

For what’s it worth, I don’t dislike you. You seem like a good guy and I apologize if I’ve lead you to believe otherwise. I realize I come across to combative at times.

 

[ob79]

I can’t tell you how many patients I’ve taken care of who’ve overdosed on legit prescription opiates, yet I don’t see swat teams raiding the Walgreens at 3 am and buying new police cruisers with the money they find in the registers. So let’s please not pretend like this has anything to do with public safety.

Pill Mills. Look it up, smart guy.

 

[Cdywolfe]

Pill Mills. Look it up, smart guy.

Fair enough but let’s not pretend like these pharmacies aren’t aware of these “pill mills” and certainly don’t hesitate to turn away the business they send their way.

As I’m sure you know, it’s not exactly hard to tell when you’re dealing with an addict.

 

[Cdywolfe]

And let me clarify... For you it probably is about public safety. But the heads of theses organizations it’s simply about generating revenue. The drug trade is big business and they want to get as big a piece of that in their deapertments pockets as they can.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

Is this FBI guy in jail for randomly shooting people? What a world class dbag.

I liked the part where he just shrugged like my b.

 

[ob79]

Fair enough but let’s not pretend like these pharmacies aren’t aware of these “pill mills” and certainly don’t hesitate to turn away the business they send their way.

As I’m sure you know, it’s not exactly hard to tell when you’re dealing with an addict.

That's a totally different conversation and one that, I imagine, you and me would find each other on the same side.

But do me a favor, don't assume that I don't have rooted interest in and compassion for the damage that prescription medication and/or illicit/synthetic narcotics have had in the community. You don't know me, you only know my profession, for which you obviously have disdain, but I've comforted the family of people who've overdosed, some of whom I have previously arrested.

When it comes to death of a loved one due to drug use, I have the utmost respect and compassion for the community.

 

[ob79]

And let me clarify... For you it probably is about public safety. But the heads of theses organizations it’s simply about generating revenue. The drug trade is big business and they want to get as big a piece of that in their deapertments pockets as they can.

Agreed.

 

[GreyWolf1129]

For what’s it worth, I don’t dislike you. You seem like a good guy and I apologize if I’ve lead you to believe otherwise. I realize I come across to combative at times.

We're good. Ras and I have gone full-out cage match on some topics, but at the end of the day, we're adults, and we can both agree that sometimes the other side is bats**t crazy, right?

What gets my hackles up is when this thread turns in to an unwarranted, undeserved, and often venomous all-out assault on cops in general. Yes, sometimes we're our own worst enemy. Trust me, I have to wear the shame and tarnish that others put on my badge. I don't need anyone rubbing it in my face.

FYI, this thread has never really been about "To Protect and Serve". More like "Guess who fu**ed up today?"

But we're good. If you go back through my posts, or ask Ras, you'll see that when there's a general issue over what cops do; why they do it that way; and what the law says about it, I always try to give you the layman's view on how it works in real life. Others here...and there are a few of us...usually do the same. I didn't come here to make enemies, or argue. I have enough of that crap just outside my walls.

Relax, and let fly. If I can't defend it, I won't try. If I can, I will.

:salute:

 

[GreyWolf1129]

Fair enough but let’s not pretend like these pharmacies aren’t aware of these “pill mills” and certainly don’t hesitate to turn away the business they send their way.

As I’m sure you know, it’s not exactly hard to tell when you’re dealing with an addict.

Pill Mills and legitimate pharmacies are two totally different things, although many a "legitimate pharmacy" has turned out to be a pill mill on the side.

 

[GreyWolf1129]

And let me clarify... For you it probably is about public safety. But the heads of theses organizations it’s simply about generating revenue. The drug trade is big business and they want to get as big a piece of that in their deapertments pockets as they can.

You get it.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

You've always operated under this narrative that drug dealing is not only legal but ok. I've worked 3 OD's this week alone, you're never going to convince me that anything other than weed should be legal (which I do...legalize it and tax the sh!t out of it). I'm not going down this rabbit hole either, we've had this conversation before and neither of us are going to budge.

And if the person whose money is seized wishes to provide proof that he obtained this money through legal means, it's rightfully theirs and therefore should be returned.

That goes against everything that America is supposed to stand for. The burden of proof is supposed to be on you guys, not the suspect. You know, the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

For what’s it worth, I don’t dislike you. You seem like a good guy and I apologize if I’ve lead you to believe otherwise. I realize I come across to combative at times.

GreyWolf isn't one of the usual suspects I was referring to earlier. He's actually reasonable and an adult about it.

 

[GreyWolf1129]

That goes against everything that America is supposed to stand for. The burden of proof is supposed to be on you guys, not the suspect. You know, the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

You are ignoring the clear distinction...in the law...between articulable suspicion, probable cause, and reasonable doubt.

That's probably a contributing factor in your inability to understand why seizure and forfeiture are, again, two completely different things.