Throw out the tuition

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

So, if the school has a set amount of money to pay players, which is what is being proposed, how does that not make them employees?

I'm not saying perks don't belong in business, but this particular issue has caused a mess. Like the poster above, wild west. And if it's "business" can anyone of you go to your employer and say, "I'm worth 75k instead of 60k, and if I don't get it, I walk." Lucky you if you can.

It WILL eventually happen that "student athletes" become "athlete employees" of the school via the courts but that will destroy the NCAA completely and create an "NFL Lite" game.

No argument that it's a mess but schools, including UT, have been involved from the start in turning college into a massive business and moving further and further from the school aspect of athletics.

UT is a university and shouldn't be running a multi million dollar athletics business but here we are and these kids coming up now DID NOT create the mess, the NCAA and schools did.

Hating on the kids for growing up and this is what they are offered by the schools is misguided. Hate on UT who sued the NCAA, often getting the State of TN to do it, to cripple any enforcement of any NIL restrictions or transfers by the NCAA.

The players just grew up and this is the system in front of them. They'd be crazy not to take millions and whatnot if schools are offering it.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

I would do similar to the coaches. Add a buyout to the contract. They currently have zero stipulations to the contracts signed. Fix it that if you sign a NIL contract you are obligated to follow that contract. Such as no transferring after Spring practice. If you sign a contract over a set amount to have a buyout clause. If the current coach leaves or is fired you have a choice to stay with your current contract or it becomes null and void. Which gives you a choice to walk away. The athlete must also have to perform the duties that are included in such contract.

Buyout? Based on what? The athletes currently do not get paid a cent by the schools. So that buyout is zero dollars.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

No, some people just don't think athletes, coaches, ADs OR GM have "earned" the right to get paid what they do. Outside of entertainment and a chance to bet on them, what tangible contributions to society do they make? That statement applies to all levels. When people that provide those tangible contributions make money, they are classified as pure evil. Who do you think pays that money. The Billionaires that pay it just recoupe it through their companies. All those dollars coming from ESPN are paid for by the advertisers on their programs. The cost of those advertisements are passed along to all of us in the form of jacked up prices for the goods advertised. How do you judge "fair market value"? What someone with more dollars then sense is willing to pay for entertainment? What about those who don't?

Easy. Fair market value is what so.ekne is willing to pay without outside interference.

You are an example of outside interference.

It's not up to you to decide how much other people can make it they are your employee or a contractor.

Then you used a classic Whattaboutism fallacy to close??? WTF?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

“Fair market value”. Please change my mind and enlighten me why Nico was worth 2 million on the bench, then another 2 million as a sub bar SEC QB? I’m all for the players getting paid, but it has gotten a little carried away.

Recall that UT OFFERED that to Nico and fought the NCAA to be able to get him, in large part, due to THEIR OFFER.

If it's carried away, it's the schools and the market for players that's carried away.

The players created none of this. Lots of school admins and lawyers did.

 

[volfan102455]

That violates federal law. Why do people keep advocating for law breaking here?

Jealousy? Mad that the athletes are finally getting fair market value for their work?
Obsolete ideas that and don't want to admit it? Refusal to accept change?

How does this break the federal law?

At a minimum all the other perks that they get need to be factored into the equation and explained to them.

You are acting like they get ZERO for their time. That is far from the truth - I dare say their total benefits outside of NIL if monetized would be greater than 250K maybe even close to a half a million per year! They get the following:

- Tuition
- Room and board
- Books and supplies
- Tutors
- Food
- Athletic training
- Exposure and advertisement of their ability on national TV
- Expenses paid for travel and hotels
- Networking opportunities that can set them up even if they don't make the NFL
- More than likely benefits for health care along with access to the best doctors to assist with anything that they need

And probably countless other items I am not thinking of.

It is a very wrong viewpoint that they have NOT been getting a fair market value for their involvement. And that viewpoint is part of the problem.

When an athlete on the team is making as much or more than a coach - that is a problem.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

That violates federal law. Why do people keep advocating for law breaking here?

Jealousy? Mad that the athletes are finally getting fair market value for their work?
Obsolete ideas that and don't want to admit it? Refusal to accept change?

IF they become actual employees of the school I will be shocked if they are not required to pay all costs other than healthcare under identical methodology like every other school employee. First every other employee will sue, second Uncle Sam wants his cut. Once the amateur model gets blown away lawyers will be blowing up other things for a while.

 

[GAVol]

No, some people just don't think athletes, coaches, ADs OR GM have "earned" the right to get paid what they do. Outside of entertainment and a chance to bet on them, what tangible contributions to society do they make? That statement applies to all levels. When people that provide those tangible contributions make money, they are classified as pure evil. Who do you think pays that money. The Billionaires that pay it just recoupe it through their companies. All those dollars coming from ESPN are paid for by the advertisers on their programs. The cost of those advertisements are passed along to all of us in the form of jacked up prices for the goods advertised. How do you judge "fair market value"? What someone with more dollars then sense is willing to pay for entertainment? What about those who don't?

It’s pretty easy. The players create a product with a fanatical following that broadcasters pay the schools billions for.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

How does this break the federal law?

At a minimum all the other perks that they get need to be factored into the equation and explained to them.

You are acting like they get ZERO for their time. That is far from the truth - I dare say their total benefits outside of NIL if monetized would be greater than 250K maybe even close to a half a million per year! They get the following:

- Tuition
- Room and board
- Books and supplies
- Tutors
- Food
- Athletic training
- Exposure and advertisement of their ability on national TV
- Expenses paid for travel and hotels
- Networking opportunities that can set them up even if they don't make the NFL
- More than likely benefits for health care along with access to the best doctors to assist with anything that they need

And probably countless other items I am not thinking of.

It is a very wrong viewpoint that they have NOT been getting a fair market value for their involvement. And that viewpoint is part of the problem.

When an athlete on the team is making as much or more than a coach - that is a problem.

Once again, the schools are offering more. It's not the fault of the players that the schools are offering them tuition + NIL.

Is it your fault if your employer offers salary + various perks?

Blame the schools. They created the market for players beyond tuition YEARS ago by paying under the table for talent. THE SCHOOLS OFFERED.

Whether you think the tuition and training and exposure is enough or not, the schools offer more than that.

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

IF they become actual employees of the school I will be shocked if they are not required to pay all costs other than healthcare under identical methodology like every other school employee. First every other employee will sue, second Uncle Sam wants his cut. Once the amateur model gets blown away lawyers will be blowing up other things for a while.

If they become employees, going to school won't be an issue. The school will have no way to force them as full-time employees to attend classes unrelated to their profession.

 

[volfan102455]

Scholarship is related to the athleticism of an individual.
NIL (Name, Image, likeness) has nothing to do with athleticism.

These monies are given for two different reasons. Because of those differences, I don't see a way to do the mentioned proposal.

If they are kept separate - yes - but the problem is that NIL doesn't currently function as it was intended. If it was, there would be no reason for the university to ask fans to chip in. And it would not matter where a player was at - the money would follow.

The amount of money that a coach is paid or the amount of money that a program receives from TV, et al should not matter nor factor in with the NIL payment. NIL should NOT be about the athlete getting their fair share from what a program takes in - it should be about them being able to use the FREE exposure and FREE advertisement they get by playing at a school to generate income based on who they are. They should have to put the work in outside of playing on the field, going to school, etc. which is what their scholarship pays for.

But that is not how some of this is working - for many of these players the money will dry up when their playing days are over, because they are not developing a personal brand or niche that will sell outside of them being connected to a college football team.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

If they are kept separate - yes - but the problem is that NIL doesn't currently function as it was intended. If it was, there would be no reason for the university to ask fans to chip in. And it would not matter where a player was at - the money would follow.

The amount of money that a coach is paid or the amount of money that a program receives from TV, et al should not matter nor factor in with the NIL payment. NIL should NOT be about the athlete getting their fair share from what a program takes in - it should be about them being able to use the FREE exposure and FREE advertisement they get by playing at a school to generate income based on who they are. They should have to put the work in outside of playing on the field, going to school, etc. which is what their scholarship pays for.

But that is not how some of this is working - for many of these players the money will dry up when their playing days are over, because they are not developing a personal brand or niche that will sell outside of them being connected to a college football team.

You don't get to say how the market should behave. The market exists because the talent of the athlete EXCEEDS the value of tuition, exposure, etc, etc.

Saying it "shouldn't" is as ridiculous as saying ANY scarce commodity "shouldn't" be so expensive. Even rare baseball cards or whatever have value based upon market desire and scarcity.

These players are commodities. Elite athletic talent is scarce and there's quite a demand for it, so the market value is high.

That you think it "shouldn't" be is laughable. The market doesn't care what you nor I think.

 

[volfan102455]

Once again, the schools are offering more. It's not the fault of the players that the schools are offering them tuition + NIL.

Is it your fault if your employer offers salary + various perks?

Blame the schools. They created the market for players beyond tuition YEARS ago by paying under the table for talent. THE SCHOOLS OFFERED.

Whether you think the tuition and training and exposure is enough or not, the schools offer more than that.

Why is that so hard to understand?

They are NOT employees of the University - if that eventually happens, all the rules change. NIL is personal to them - it is their "name, image and likeness" and making money on that. They actually have the best of both worlds right now. But unless it comes under control - in a few years they will have cut off the hand that feeds them so to speak.

To answer your question - employers have conflict of interest rules that limit what skills and knowledge an employee can use to make money outside of their employment with them. So honestly while there are perks directly related to one doing their job - there are limitations around an employee using those skills outside of work to make extra money.

 

[Flogballs]

Get rid of the academic requirement

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

They are NOT employees of the University - if that eventually happens, all the rules change. NIL is personal to them - it is their "name, image and likeness" and making money on that. They actually have the best of both worlds right now. But unless it comes under control - in a few years they will have cut off the hand that feeds them so to speak.

To answer your question - employers have conflict of interest rules that limit what skills and knowledge an employee can use to make money outside of their employment with them. So honestly while there are perks directly related to one doing their job - there are limitations around an employee using those skills outside of work to make extra money.

While not employees of the school legally, they provide a service BEYOND the average student to the school and get rewarded with a scholarship and perks for that service.

Over the years, their value to the school has been more than just the scholarship + perks + exposure, etc so the schools illegally "sweetened the pot" with offers to get athletes to attend their school.

The NCAA fought to the end to keep NIL from being offered because they KNEW that the athletes were extremely valuable to the schools BEYOND the scholarship, etc.

Sure enough, the schools started essentially paying players "NIL" via the thinly veiled collectives but it's actually the difference in value between the scholarship, perks, etc and the athlete's value to the team.

I get that you dislike the extreme value of the players but it just is a truth: the scholarship, perks, exposure, etc, etc DOES NOT cover the value of the athletes to the schools so they pay them more.

No amount of saying the scholarship and all is enough will make it true.

 

[volfan102455]

You don't get to say how the market should behave. The market exists because the talent of the athlete EXCEEDS the value of tuition, exposure, etc, etc.

Saying it "shouldn't" is as ridiculous as saying ANY scarce commodity "shouldn't" be so expensive. Even rare baseball cards or whatever have value based upon market desire and scarcity.

These players are commodities. Elite athletic talent is scarce and there's quite a demand for it, so the market value is high.

That you think it "shouldn't" be is laughable. The market doesn't care what you nor I think.

I am saying that is how "NIL" is supposed to work. It is not "name image and likeness" of the Tennessee Volunteers - that is the school's brand, and the school should be reap all the benefits of that. That brand will exist no matter who is playing on the team this year or 20 years from now. Sometimes I think we should just remove the name from the back of the jerseys.

NIL should NOT be something the university or fans pay for. It just shouldn't. If it worked like it should, a player who is successful on the field both as a player and as a person, should be able to work with the collectives (i.e. marketing experts who assist them with pushing their brand) to secure "work" to promote their "name, image and likeness". But many expect it to be a handout without them having to participate.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Throw out the "student athlete" title while you're at it. We know it's bullsh_t.

 

[theknox]

And if it's "business" can anyone of you go to your employer and say, "I'm worth 75k instead of 60k, and if I don't get it, I walk."

Pretty much everyone can go to their boss and say "I'm worth 75 Quadrillion instead of 60k." Your boss will probably laugh at you and if you decide to stand your ground you may end up without your job (basically what happened to Nico). But you are certainly free to try to renegotiate any time you think you have leverage to do so.

 

[volfan102455]

IF they become actual employees of the school I will be shocked if they are not required to pay all costs other than healthcare under identical methodology like every other school employee. First every other employee will sue, second Uncle Sam wants his cut. Once the amateur model gets blown away lawyers will be blowing up other things for a while.

Agree. Employees of the university pay for many of the "perks" that the student athlete gets for free. The individual differentiation of the pay will stop. It only exists in the NFL et al because that is the business.

Many of these universities are funded by the states with the employees being employees of the states. If the players are smart, they do NOT want to be employees of the state. Good chance that several years from now, the players will be asking "what happened to all the money"?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I am saying that is how "NIL" is supposed to work. It is not "name image and likeness" of the Tennessee Volunteers - that is the school's brand, and the school should be reap all the benefits of that. That brand will exist no matter who is playing on the team this year or 20 years from now. Sometimes I think we should just remove the name from the back of the jerseys.

NIL should NOT be something the university or fans pay for. It just shouldn't. If it worked like it should, a player who is successful on the field both as a player and as a person, should be able to work with the collectives (i.e. marketing experts who assist them with pushing their brand) to secure "work" to promote their "name, image and likeness". But many expect it to be a handout without them having to participate.

And welcome to the real world. NIL works like it does because the schools WANT the athletes to attend their school so they don't care about how it "should" work but about how it CAN work to help field a better team.

That's why fans, rich fans but still fans, paid players under the table previously for schools, so the school could field a better team.

That's why schools build state of the art training facilities, locker rooms, spas, training cafeterias, etc etc to attract better athletes and field a better team.

Schools spend MILLIONS on facilities to compete with other teams. It's no wonder they now spend millions directly to players also.

 

[volfan102455]

While not employees of the school legally, they provide a service BEYOND the average student to the school and get rewarded with a scholarship and perks for that service.

Many of those "AVERAGE" students end up being doctors, scientists, and other leaders that actually provide real value in life. The athlete just plays a game on Saturday.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Many of those "AVERAGE" students end up being doctors, scientists, and other leaders that actually provide real value in life. The athlete just plays a game on Saturday.

I get it. Many of these guys too end up getting an education and not going pro. The millionaires tend to go pro but lots of guys get much less.

The scarcity of talented athletes leads to all this. There's big competition for a few REALLY talented guys.

There's big competition for talented doctors too but several million people a week aren't watching doctors on TV.

 

[EastTNVol6240]

Recall that UT OFFERED that to Nico and fought the NCAA to be able to get him, in large part, due to THEIR OFFER.

If it's carried away, it's the schools and the market for players that's carried away.

The players created none of this. Lots of school admins and lawyers did.

Players aren’t creating this when they hold out and talk to other skills just to get a dollar boost from their current school? We both know you don’t really believe that. Schools and lawyers helped create this of course, but now the players will manipulate it to the fullest extent.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Players aren’t creating this when they hold out and talk to other skills just to get a dollar boost from their current school? We both know you don’t really believe that. Schools and lawyers helped create this of course, but now the players will manipulate it to the fullest extent.

Players are responsible for holdouts, of course, but they didn't create the NIL system nor portal system that makes that crap a possibility.

Most players don't manipulate the system. A few jerks do, just a like a few jerks manipulate any system.

 

[RobVol2]

Let them get paid all the NIL they warrant, stop the transfers and the madness stops. You get to transfer all you want but you lose that year of playing time, you know how it used to be? That will put a stop to leaving for money from another school. They can have all the agents and collectives they want but stop the multiple transfers and this will go back to what we know as college football

 

[EastTNVol6240]

Players are responsible for holdouts, of course, but they didn't create the NIL system nor portal system that makes that crap a possibility.

Most players don't manipulate the system. A few jerks do, just a like a few jerks manipulate any system.

I would say that nearly any player capable of manipulating the system is. That’s to say any player that is starting caliper(superstar) and capable of drawing attention from multiple schools. Sure you aren’t going to see many 2nd string centers doing this, because they have no leverage.