The Venezuela thread

[Orange_Crush]

No, you got in to semantics as to "war", now you are switching it to endless war. What has been occurring is war or acts of war.

I'm not switching. I'm reminding. I've repeatedly stated that my understanding was that Trump promised no more endless wars. My argument has been that "war" is generally defined as an extended/ongoing thing by roughly equal countries, and venezuela/iran do not fit that. It's convenient that any time a definition is inconvenient to you, you just wave it off with accusations of "semantics". lol You're calling a tail a leg while accusing me of doing so.

I won't post the definitions for you again. You're still a waste of time.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I'm not switching. I'm reminding. I've repeatedly stated that my understanding was that Trump promised no more endless wars. My argument has been that "war" is generally defined as an extended/ongoing thing by roughly equal countries, and venezuela/iran do not fit that. It's convenient that any time a definition is inconvenient to you, you just wave it off with accusations of "semantics". lol You're calling a tail a leg while accusing me of doing so.

I won't post the definitions for you again. You're still a waste of time.

Yes, he got the U.S. into a similar position as Syria by controlling oil... I would call that a war, its being done under war powers.

 

[Orange_Crush]

no new wars shouldn't come down to an argument of semantics or scale. Trump is pulling his best Bill Clinton asking "what the definition of is is".

our military took violent action in another country. that sounds like war. those defining it as not war would not hold the same standard were things flipped.

his campaign promise would hold water if it was "no new multi decade military occupations" but thats not the case.

My request for contextual quotes still stands, that would prove that his promised "America-First" policy would not entail any military actions. The closest I've seen is quotes that the former policy of endless wars and nation-building haven't worked. That was quickly dealt with by links to the definitions of "war", and the fact that there are indeed several categories of military that aren't consider war. Inconveniently, both Iran and Venezuela fell into those categories.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Yes, he got the U.S. into a similar position as Syria by controlling oil... I would call that a war, its being done under war powers.

Are you talking about venezuela?

 

[LSU-SIU]

My request for contextual quotes still stands, that would prove that his promised "America-First" policy would not entail any military actions. The closest I've seen is quotes that the former policy of endless wars and nation-building haven't worked. That was quickly dealt with by links to the definitions of "war", and the fact that there are indeed several categories of military that aren't consider war. Inconveniently, both Iran and Venezuela fell into those categories.

In context it is an endless war because he'll keep bombing, which is why they were threatening Iran again and they are telling the puppets in Venezuela to do what they are told... or they are coming back.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Are you talking about venezuela?

Yes. These are all war power actions.

 

[Orange_Crush]

In context it is an endless war because he'll keep bombing, which is why they were threatening Iran again and they are telling the puppets in Venezuela to do what they are told... or they are coming back.

So, it's currently a war because of what you suspect may happen in the future? So, there is no military activity at the moment, but it IS an endless war? You should brush up on tenses.

If we were to bomb them again, there will still be no troops on the ground, they still couldn't do **** about it, and that would still fall under the definition of a military action that is not defined as a war.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Yes. These are all war power actions.

It's "similar" enough to Syria to fall under the posted definition of "war", much less and endless war?

 

[Orange_Crush]

I've been asking for quotes. If you can show me where they promised no military engagements for America's benefit, I'll concede the point. It won't hurt my feelings a bit. I admit I didn't hang on their every word during the campaigns. I do remember phrases like "endless wars" and "nation-building". I didn't interpret that as the promises LG claims.

War | History, Causes, Types, Meaning, Examples, & Facts | Britannica

War, in the popular sense, a conflict between political groups involving hostilities of considerable duration and magnitude. Sociologists usually apply the term to such conflicts only if they are initiated and conducted in accordance with socially recognized forms.

www.britannica.com

It's not semantics. It's refusing to allow others to call a tail a leg without giving the context and proof that Trump was doing so during the campaigns. It's a refusal to allow victory laps via equivocation.

Sigh. I guess I will just post this here, again.

war, in the popular sense, a conflict between political groups involving hostilities of considerable duration and magnitude.

Military writers usually confine the term to hostilities in which the contending groups are sufficiently equal in power to render the outcome uncertain for a time. Armed conflicts of powerful states with isolated and powerless peoples are usually called pacifications, military expeditions, or explorations; with small states, they are called interventions or reprisals; and with internal groups, rebellions or insurrections. Such incidents, if the resistance is sufficiently strong or protracted, may achieve a magnitude that entitles them to the name “war.”

 

[LSU-SIU]

It's "similar" enough to Syria to fall under the posted definition of "war", much less and endless war?

View attachment 805081

They are war powers actions, go ask Trump, his administration will say that... they have... see their response to the Senate bill.

Its like saying Pearl Harbor wasn't an act of war, it was.

 

[Orange_Crush]

They are war powers actions, go ask Trump, his administration will say that... they have... see their response to the Senate bill.

Its like saying Pearl Harbor wasn't an act of war, it was.

war, in the popular sense, a conflict between political groups involving hostilities of considerable duration and magnitude.

Military writers usually confine the term to hostilities in which the contending groups are sufficiently equal in power to render the outcome uncertain for a time. Armed conflicts of powerful states with isolated and powerless peoples are usually called pacifications, military expeditions, or explorations; with small states, they are called interventions or reprisals; and with internal groups, rebellions or insurrections. Such incidents, if the resistance is sufficiently strong or protracted, may achieve a magnitude that entitles them to the name “war.”

So, still no contextual proof that Trump promised no military actions? I'll reserve replies until I see them. Because, in case I haven't mentioned it... You're a waste of time.

 

[LSU-SIU]

So, still no contextual proof that Trump promised no military actions? I'll reserve replies until I see them. Because, in case I haven't mentioned it... You're a waste of time.

I never said he said that.

 

[LouderVol]

My request for contextual quotes still stands, that would prove that his promised "America-First" policy would not entail any military actions. The closest I've seen is quotes that the former policy of endless wars and nation-building haven't worked. That was quickly dealt with by links to the definitions of "war", and the fact that there are indeed several categories of military that aren't consider war. Inconveniently, both Iran and Venezuela fell into those categories.

I don't think replacing 1 long war with dozens of short 1 day events makes the situation any better. if anything we are pissing more people off, getting involved in more business that doesn't directly involve us.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I don't think replacing 1 long war with dozens of short 1 day events makes the situation any better. if anything we are pissing more people off, getting involved in more business that doesn't directly involve us.

The discussion I tried to have was not about what was better. It was about the accusation that Trump lied and conservatives are basically stupid moron rubes. I haven't really weighed in on what's better. As a matter of fact, I've stated repeatedly that I'm waiting for outcomes to judge whether it's better--and even if it turns out to be "better" as far as America's benefit, I'll probably still be conflicted about it.

If you want to have that debate, it'll be short, because I just posted and underlined my view in one sentence. If you want to continue to waste my time like someone else in here, by arguing stupid red herrings to that have little to do with that discussion, I'll reserve replies on the matter for you as well.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I don't think replacing 1 long war with dozens of short 1 day events makes the situation any better. if anything we are pissing more people off, getting involved in more business that doesn't directly involve us.

I don't think that is what most people that voted for him had in mind and it doesn't matter what the definitions are. Might as well have hired Jeb Bush for foreign policy.

I'm not even saying we're there yet but its not looking good at the moment.

 

[LouderVol]

The discussion I tried to have was not about what was better. It was about the accusation that Trump lied and conservatives are basically stupid moron rubes. I haven't really weighed in on what's better. As a matter of fact, I've stated repeatedly that I'm waiting for outcomes to judge whether it's better--and even if it turns out to be "better" as far as America's benefit, I'll probably still be conflicted about it.

If you want to have that debate, it'll be short, because I just posted and underlined my view in one sentence. If you want to continue to waste my time like someone else in here, by arguing stupid red herrings to that have little to do with that discussion, I'll reserve replies on the matter for you as well.

Trump did lie. regardless of which is better war is war, short or long, big or little. we have said that multiple times.

congress hasn't declared war since what, WW2? so that definition has clearly gone on the wayside.

 

[utvolpj]

I'm just disappointed we have to stop taking about Obama destroying Libya since it wasn't really a war

 

[Orange_Crush]

Trump did lie. regardless of which is better war is war, short or long, big or little. we have said that multiple times.

congress hasn't declared war since what, WW2? so that definition has clearly gone on the wayside.

Should be easy to post the quotes when he promised no military actions. TIA

 

[Good Ol' Charlie Brown]

Nothing like a cup of argument to wake me up during planning period. Whose side am I on?

 

[LouderVol]

Should be easy to post the quotes when he promised no military actions. TIA

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/trump-im-not-going-to-start-wars-im-going-to-stop-wars/

"“I’m not going to start wars, I’m going to stop wars,” declares Republican US presidential nominee Donald Trump in his victory speech."

After Trump promised 'no new wars,' Venezuela escalation could test MAGA's tolerance, analysts say

President Donald Trump's "America First" supporters don't appear to be breaking with him on Venezuela, but analysts say following through on land strikes could change that.

www.nbcnews.com

"Trump declared in his victory speech that he was “not going to start a war, I’m going to stop wars,” praising the “strong” U.S. military that, "ideally, we don’t have to use.” And this year he denounced decades of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, decrying “Western interventionists” who had given other countries “lectures on how to live.”"

 

[Good Ol' Charlie Brown]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/trump-im-not-going-to-start-wars-im-going-to-stop-wars/

"“I’m not going to start wars, I’m going to stop wars,” declares Republican US presidential nominee Donald Trump in his victory speech."

After Trump promised 'no new wars,' Venezuela escalation could test MAGA's tolerance, analysts say

President Donald Trump's "America First" supporters don't appear to be breaking with him on Venezuela, but analysts say following through on land strikes could change that.

www.nbcnews.com

"Trump declared in his victory speech that he was “not going to start a war, I’m going to stop wars,” praising the “strong” U.S. military that, "ideally, we don’t have to use.” And this year he denounced decades of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, decrying “Western interventionists” who had given other countries “lectures on how to live.”"

Two things-- number one, you used NBC. Leftist post. Use PBS or whatever. Two, he didn't start a war. He just kidnapped a dictator and a second-world buddy-buddy

 

[Orange_Crush]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/trump-im-not-going-to-start-wars-im-going-to-stop-wars/

"“I’m not going to start wars, I’m going to stop wars,” declares Republican US presidential nominee Donald Trump in his victory speech."

After Trump promised 'no new wars,' Venezuela escalation could test MAGA's tolerance, analysts say

President Donald Trump's "America First" supporters don't appear to be breaking with him on Venezuela, but analysts say following through on land strikes could change that.

www.nbcnews.com

"Trump declared in his victory speech that he was “not going to start a war, I’m going to stop wars,” praising the “strong” U.S. military that, "ideally, we don’t have to use.” And this year he denounced decades of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, decrying “Western interventionists” who had given other countries “lectures on how to live.”"

I've posted definitions that show that there are military activities that do not classify as war. Saying that we would "ideally" not have to use the military is not promising not to use it. Are two brief bombings the same as our "decades" of foreign policy? Specifically what about the decades of foreign policy was Trump castigating?

Was Trump promising not to get us entangled in endless foreign wars and the expense of nation-building? Or was he promising no military actions at all?

I'll wait.

war, in the popular sense, a conflict between political groups involving hostilities of considerable duration and magnitude.

Military writers usually confine the term to hostilities in which the contending groups are sufficiently equal in power to render the outcome uncertain for a time. Armed conflicts of powerful states with isolated and powerless peoples are usually called pacifications, military expeditions, or explorations; with small states, they are called interventions or reprisals; and with internal groups, rebellions or insurrections. Such incidents, if the resistance is sufficiently strong or protracted, may achieve a magnitude that entitles them to the name “war.”

 

[adam.vol]

I'm not saying that Trump had the power and authority to do what was done without going through congress but Maduro was viewed as an international criminal. The Biden administration had a $25M bounty on him. He stayed in power as a dicator after he lost an election. He was selling embargoed oil to the adversary. He emptied out jails and prisons to send them to the US, his country is a huge importer of cocaine, cartels help him run the country. His citizens were starving. His country is in the Western Hemisphere and his actions with Cuba, Iran, China, Russia, and working with terrorists in the Middle East to train cartel members are a threat to national security. Trump just doesn't talk a good game like administrations before him.

Thomas Jefferson established that the US president has the authority to mobilize the Marine Corps without congressional approval. That is when the US went to war with the Barbary Nations because they were abducting American sailors and stealing the cargo, not unlike what Venezuela did with Citgo’s employees. Trump is not supposed to be able to mobilize any other branch without congressional authorization.

My issue isn’t Trump’s abuse of authority here. It’s that I don’t trust him regardless of what he says or does because he’s a compulsive liar, just like the rest of our presidents since JFK.

 

[LouderVol]

I've posted definitions that show that there are military activities that do not classify as war. Saying that we would "ideally" not have to use the military is not promising not to use it. Are two brief bombings the same as our "decades" of foreign policy? Specifically what about the decades of foreign policy was Trump castigating?

Was Trump promising not to get us entangled in endless foreign wars and the expense of nation-building? Or was he promising no military actions at all?

I'll wait.

45 minutes for war

Anglo-Zanzibar War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and its laughable to try and make this as something not amongst peers. we are two countries. not one country going after an isolated tribe confined to a single island for pacificiation.

 

[Orange_Crush]

45 minutes for war

Anglo-Zanzibar War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and its laughable to try and make this as something not amongst peers. we are two countries. not one country going after an isolated tribe confined to a single island for pacificiation.

What's laughable is that you still can't or won't provide context for Trump's "promises". Nothing in your quotes so far have equated to Trump promising not to do what he's done with Iran and venezuela.

I'll ask again. Did Trump promise no military actions, or did he say that he would not get us bogged down into more endless/long-term wars, occupations and nation-building?

I'll wait.