The Tennessee Walking Horse

#176
#176
WOW! It was never my intention to create such a heated topic of discussion. I just wanted to maybe start a movement to bring the Tennessee walking horse back as a permanent part of the pre-game festivities for home games. Clearly this subject is more complicated than I first realized.
 
#177
#177
Brave Volunteer said:
WOW! It was never my intention to create such a heated topic of discussion. I just wanted to maybe start a movement to bring the Tennessee walking horse back as a permanent part of the pre-game festivities for home games. Clearly this subject is more complicated than I first realized.
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I don't t think it's complicated, just sensitive. It seems most want the same thing, there is just disagreement as to whether we have it or not.
 
#179
#179
IPorange said:
Ya, virtually nonexistent these days.

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First of all, I have been at these horse shows and witnessed plenty of the people getting denied showing their horses. The people who do this job are not all that bright, I am sure some of them are. If a squeeze your foot really hard would you pull it back, probably because I would. More than half of those denials are unjust and false. I have been denied before and I know my horse had never been sored. My horse had his foot cought in a gate and he got a nasty cut and scare from it. When the man pushed his finger in the scare as hard as he could he flinched. Man said he was sored, thought myself and my father were going to kill this guy. Cost me a chance at a world championship and money. I have witnessed some who were quilty and you could tell it plain as day by just looking if you know what to really look for.
 
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#180
#180
Brave Volunteer said:
WOW! It was never my intention to create such a heated topic of discussion. I just wanted to maybe start a movement to bring the Tennessee walking horse back as a permanent part of the pre-game festivities for home games. Clearly this subject is more complicated than I first realized.
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Well said, wish they would do it for every game. It definitely adds to the atmosphere of the game. It is something awesome to see.
 
#181
#181
Question: Big Lick?

And as for his original post, he said he's cool with it as long as the horse isn't one that's sored.
 
#182
#182
IPorange said:
Only if we quit using Big Lick horses that have been "trained" via acid burns and other torturous methods.
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Get your facts straight...After the last Celebration in Franklin Tennessee that had the majority of the field disqualified the trainers got the point. Those horses are looked at closer than ever.
 
#183
#183
As for having it at the game, I believe it's currently pointless.

It can't go across the field, therefore it must go around the field in the form of a lap.
In order for it to do this, there can't be too many people around, so it must be done before the teams are on the field.
If it's to be done before the teams enter the field, the stadium is no more than 60% full.
The lap takes too long.

The reason the horse works for FSU and USC is that it goes on the field, which wouldn't work for us.
 
#186
#186
IPorange said:
The difference is that in animal-related sports, a sentient being is not willfully choosing the sacrifice, pain, etc. Not saying all animal-related sports are wrong, I'm just saying it is one that has to be extra careful when it comes to ethical situations, as domesticated animals are completely at your mercy, and should be treated with some degree of dignity afforded to all higher life.

Now, his argument seemed to be against banning all TN walking horses... That I would be against completely.
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Animals are bred and domesticated to serve a purpose for humans. Some are for entertainment but most for certain work that needs to be accomplished or for food. I think Tennessee should bring the Walking Horse back and as a responsible institution should stipulate no "soring" was used in the training. They could be provided from a small number of farms or maybe one breeder as is the case for Smokey. I still think making Smokey watch the last three seasons is almost as cruel as soring a horse.
 
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#187
#187
Long ago we used to have them at most home games. It was lovely to have something else really Tennessee to show to the visitors. I know there is "mess" in the sport, but also in all other sports....Don't keep the horse away but be selective in what horse you invite....I came three hundred miles to see the horse at homecoming in 2009. Yes other schools use horses, eagles, tigers and other animals.....Some on the field too.
 
#190
#190
thebjd said:
...I still think making Smokey watch the last three seasons is almost as cruel as soring a horse.
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Fer gawd's sake don't let THAT get out. The animal rights folks will be all over the entire program. You are right, it is cruel.

I also loved the TENNESSEE Walking Horse and the tradition it carried around the field.
 
#191
#191
I'll weigh in here a little as this is my first post here but I have orange in the veins ... My grandfather played for the 1921 Tennessee Vols squad.
I'm the son of a retired Tennessee Walking horse trainer. My Dad has actually rode the horse at the game back in 1979 when Tennessee played Ga Tech.
First correction ... The Celebration (world championships) are held in Shelbyville and not Franklin ... but you were close.:thumbsup:
A little history, the walking horse was originally bred back in the 1800's as transportation for the plantation owner to oversee his workers. The horse has a very distinctive, easy-going gait. All horses have 3 basic gaits ... the walk (4 beat gait), the canter/lope/ gallop (a 3- beat gait and the horse can lead with either front foot) and the trot or pace (2-beat gait - the trot has the front and rear diagonal legs moving at the same time and the pace has the front and rear legs on the same side moving at the same time)..... that is all horses EXCEPT the Tennessee Walking Horse. It is the only horse that when moved up faster from the walk, it does not go into a 2-beat gait but maintains the 4-beat gate at a faster pace. The ride is very smooth, even if the horse is doing the "big lick".
Now, as far as the big lick .... it started showing up in the 1950's when the horse evolved more from a pleasure type horse to a show horse. There was no control in the industry and many ingenious methods were come up with to get the look that people wanted to see. The horses pasterns (ankles) were subjected to much irritation which made the horse step higher and the price paid was callouses completely encircling the horse's foot above the hoof. In 1974, the USDA got involved and passed the Horse Protection Act. It gave the trainers time to "clean up their act", so to speak and by sometime in the middle 1980's, no horse was allowed to have callouses on their pasterns. A very good first step. It also began to randomly inspect horses for soundness using machines to detect hot spots in the feet and by actually lifting the foot and pressing with the fingers in certain areas to see if the horse would "flinch" from pain.
Nowadays, every show has a DQP or "horse inspector" to inspect every horse before it enters the show ring and sometimes afterwards also. The USDA still monitors and sends experts to sometimes "double-check" the inspectors to ensure compliance. Now like any kind of quality test, the methods of inspection can change from person to person. That's what happened a few years back when many were disqualified to compete in the World Grand Championship and the trainers rebelled by not even having a championship class for that year (even those that passed inspection boycotted).
The industry has changed for the better as far as the abusive practices and the trainers now have to work harder in training to get a horse "show ready" and competitive and still be in compliance with all rules and regulations. The horses themselves, for the most part, live a life of luxury at the top training facilities but they do have a job to do also .... the cream rises and those, my friends, are the ones that the University of Tennessee invites to parade on the sidelines.
 
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#192
#192
vols22 said:
I myself have trained horses for most of my life. Spotted saddle and some Walking Horse. Don't put down something that is so awesome to watch just because you think you know so much about it because you read it in the paper. I have never sored a horse and never will. Most of the trainers that train do not either. Just because some do don't put the sport down and everyone involved. In that case, football is ridiculous, players put unnatural things in their bodies to perform better on the field. You need to put football down also. I can't stand it when someone does this. Its the added weight that makes them walk like that.
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Yes, we sit pretty close to the field, and I did notice Saturday the weights, or what looked like weights on the horses feet, and I assumed that was what made them walk like they do. They are beautiful horses, and I do wish we could start bringing them back for home games, or at least the ones when they know the weather will be good. If I recall correctly, the reason they stopped it before was because of the field being wet and slippery and one of the horses almost fell so they thought it was too risky to continue.
 
#193
#193
Mustng959 said:
I'll weigh in here a little as this is my first post here but I have orange in the veins ... My grandfather played for the 1921 Tennessee Vols squad.
I'm the son of a retired Tennessee Walking horse trainer. My Dad has actually rode the horse at the game back in 1978 when Tennessee played Ga Tech.
First correction ... The Celebration (world championships) are held in Shelbyville and not Franklin ... but you were close.:thumbsup:
A little history, the walking horse was originally bred back in the 1800's as transportation for the plantation owner to oversee his workers. The horse has a very distinctive, easy-going gait. All horses have 3 basic gaits ... the walk (4 beat gait), the canter/lope/ gallop (a 3- beat gait and the horse can lead with either front foot) and the trot or pace (2-beat gait - the trot has the front and rear diagonal legs moving at the same time and the pace has the front and rear legs on the same side moving at the same time)..... that is all horses EXCEPT the Tennessee Walking Horse. It is the only horse that when moved up faster from the walk, it does not go into a 2-beat gait but maintains the 4-beat gate at a faster pace. The ride is very smooth, even if the horse is doing the "big lick".
Now, as far as the big lick .... it started showing up in the 1950's when the horse evolved more from a pleasure type horse to a show horse. There was no control in the industry and many ingenious methods were come up with to get the look that people wanted to see. The horses pasterns (ankles) were subjected to much irritation which made the horse step higher and the price paid was callouses completely encircling the horse's foot above the hoof. In 1974, the USDA got involved and passed the Horse Protection Act. It gave the trainers time to "clean up their act", so to speak and by sometime in the middle 1980's, no horse was allowed to have callouses on their pasterns. A very good first step. It also began to randomly inspect horses for soundness using machines to detect hot spots in the feet and by actually lifting the foot and pressing with the fingers in certain areas to see if the horse would "flinch" from pain.
Nowadays, every show has a DQP or "horse inspector" to inspect every horse before it enters the show ring and sometimes afterwards also. The USDA still monitors and sends experts to sometimes "double-check" the inspectors to ensure compliance. Now like any kind of quality test, the methods of inspection can change from person to person. That's what happened a few years back when many were disqualified to compete in the World Grand Championship and the trainers rebelled by not even having a championship class for that year (even those that passed inspection boycotted).
The industry has changed for the better as far as the abusive practices and the trainers now have to work harder in training to get a horse "show ready" and competitive and still be in compliance with all rules and regulations. The horses themselves, for the most part, live a life of luxury at the top training facilities but they do have a job to do also .... the cream rises and those, my friends, are the ones that the University of Tennessee invites to parade on the sidelines.
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Welcome to the boards, Mustang. Post often.
 
#194
#194
Thanks for the welcome! I did make one mistake in my post .... the Ga Tech game was on Oct 13, 1979. I've got the plaque that UT gave Dad here on the wall and I didn't even look at it.
 
#195
#195
I have a buddy that shows horses and I can remember going to a show with several dq's. They were disqualifying horses that had any loss of hair on their coronal band around the top of their hoof. This is not from soring but rather from placing a weighted chain around their feet in order to get the horse to try to step out of it. This practice does not hurt the horse. Grease is applied to the ankle so the chain moves smoothly, but just as a runner develops a callus after extended use, the same can be said for the horse.

Also, as someone else mentioned earlier, padding is the reason for the high gate of these horses. They do not walk around the barn in this manner when the pads are off. I have seen a horse that has been sored and it's terrible to see them struggle. They are easy to spot when they are sore. Primarily by watching for balance issues and the way they react to a stumble, you can tell a sore horse. If a horse is sweating profusely just after entering the arena, you can bet something is probalbly off as well. Over the last few years, a long stride with the back end has become the gold standard and many have started chemical soring the back legs. When a horse steps past it's front end with it's back end, that's not normal and another good indicator of soreness. These are the signs that should be penalized. Judging whether a horse has been sored by looking at hair loss just doesn't cut it. When that started disqualifying overall healthy horses, many decided to just not enter shows when the "horse police" show up.

IPorange mentioned working in the vet industry so he has seen more of the bad side of the horse business. His bias towards the walking horse industry is probalby justified from his perspective. Horse owners don't bring healthy horses to the vet though.
 
#196
#196
Some good observations there, volnation. There are horses that can naturally over stride the back foot with the front, those are the $$$ horses and what many horsemen look for when walking horses are under halter as weanlings and yearlings. Pedigree breeding pays a large part of this. To be honest, I'm so far out of the industry itself now that I couldn't even tell you who won last year. The foundation sires were only twice removed in my day and I'm sure now they haven't appeared on a pedigree in decades. The people I watched growing up as a kid and that showed against my father were the movers and shakers of the industry in it's infancy.
You're correct in the hair loss statement that it is not a tell-all indicator of a sound horse as ways have been perfected to obtain the same results. Action devices (weights) have changed dramatically over the years. Back in the 60's, mostly "boots" were used which were leather bands that went around the pastern area. They contained weight from lead or mercury and hid other things such as "knockers" which were raised weights sewn inside the boot that made direct contact with the tender pastern and coronary band. For those that don't know, the coronary band is where the skin of the ankle turns into the hoof. It's a semi soft ring of skin circling the foot and can be compared to the area beneath one's fingernails .... very susceptible to manipulation by an action device. Nowadays, only weighted "chains" are used. They are small in weight and must be securely fastened with a leather strap and can not be loose enough to touch the coronary band.
Distress in any animal can not be disguised ... the eyes will give them away every time if one knows what to look for.
Is the industry perfect? Is anything? I do believe though that great strides and cooperation between the USDA, the trainers, and the owners has made the industry more humane and I'm sure that better training methods with the welfare of the horse in mind will continue to advance. There will always be some that are looking for an edge but they will ultimately be unsuccessful in the industry.
 
#197
#197
I'm 100% in favor of having a Tennessee Walker at all of our games. New era, new tradition. (Yes, I know they've had them...but just homecoming.)
 
#198
#198
If I am not mistaken the horses were stopped at home games when we had that green rug and not real grass. It was slick and could have injured the horse. Glad we have a beautiful real field now....Bring the horses back.
 
#199
#199
Mustng959 said:
Some good observations there, volnation. There are horses that can naturally over stride the back foot with the front, those are the $$$ horses and what many horsemen look for when walking horses are under halter as weanlings and yearlings. Pedigree breeding pays a large part of this. To be honest, I'm so far out of the industry itself now that I couldn't even tell you who won last year. The foundation sires were only twice removed in my day and I'm sure now they haven't appeared on a pedigree in decades. The people I watched growing up as a kid and that showed against my father were the movers and shakers of the industry in it's infancy.
You're correct in the hair loss statement that it is not a tell-all indicator of a sound horse as ways have been perfected to obtain the same results. Action devices (weights) have changed dramatically over the years. Back in the 60's, mostly "boots" were used which were leather bands that went around the pastern area. They contained weight from lead or mercury and hid other things such as "knockers" which were raised weights sewn inside the boot that made direct contact with the tender pastern and coronary band. For those that don't know, the coronary band is where the skin of the ankle turns into the hoof. It's a semi soft ring of skin circling the foot and can be compared to the area beneath one's fingernails .... very susceptible to manipulation by an action device. Nowadays, only weighted "chains" are used. They are small in weight and must be securely fastened with a leather strap and can not be loose enough to touch the coronary band.
Distress in any animal can not be disguised ... the eyes will give them away every time if one knows what to look for.
Is the industry perfect? Is anything? I do believe though that great strides and cooperation between the USDA, the trainers, and the owners has made the industry more humane and I'm sure that better training methods with the welfare of the horse in mind will continue to advance. There will always be some that are looking for an edge but they will ultimately be unsuccessful in the industry.
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Yeah, I was to general with that statement. I should have said an overstride to the point that the horse looks like it's trying to keep his weight on his front feet is a good sign.

Your statement about breeding reminds me of another problem I have seen in these horses. Now days, a high bred horse is so tender in the mouth that you have to be extra careful with the type of bit you use with them. I have heard many people account this to the breeding practices. Some belive that these horses are a little too closely related, which can be a problem with any pure bred animal.

Overall, the beauty and class that these horse display outweighs the negatives by a long shot. I would love to see us bring them back for every game.
 
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