The rebuild

[RollerVol]

yes, he should get 5 years...need stability and it's only fair to give him the time to build a team seeing what he's had to begin with... believe our history is better left in it's place.....everybody knows no one learns from history...

GO VOLS...RECRUIT LIKE HECK!

 

[Volfan2012]

Just some food for thought…..

There have not been a lot of coaching changes over the years at Tennessee. From 1964 to 2008, Tennessee had 4 head coaches. Since 2009, they have had 4 head coaches.

Dickey had a quick turnaround from the previous regime. Year 1 was a rebuild, but after that, he won. Battle won with what he inherited, then it declined (a poor man’s Larry Coker). Then, came Johnny. It took Johnny a long time to get it going. When I say long time, I mean that a coach today would have been fired twice with the leash he was given. And of course, Phil won with what he inherited and ran with it.

Now, I don’t know how much different things were in 1964 vs. 1977, but maybe there are some on the board who do.

The question I have is….is 4 to 5 years a reasonable amount of time to make the turnaround you’re looking for? Is a Johnny Majors’ rebuild vs. a Doug Dickey rebuild what has to take place? If in year 4, 5, Tennessee is winning 9 games, but no SEC Title, no SEC East, a poor record vs. Bama, Florida, and Georgia…..do you abandon ship or give Pruitt more time?

There are all kinds of jokes about “year 0”, but there was a certain logic to that when Dooley said it and there may be more logic to it now. Pruitt did become head coach after arguably Tennessee’s worst season ever. First time losing 8. First time without a conference win. Does that warrant more time?

Anyway, thought it might be worth posting, because after thinking about it, I’m not sure getting to Atlanta by year 4 is a realistic goal. And no, I’m not in the “Tennessee is done” crowd.

And for those who say....easy for you to say....look what Mullen did. Florida didn't beat Georgia. Didn't win the East. Didn't win the SEC. Didn't play Bama (and Bama is not a rival), so he wont have to answer "when are you going to beat Bama" questions. As good a year as Florida had and as happy as I am, I don't know exactly when Florida is winning the East or the SEC either.

Considering recruiting this year and every year past no one in the SEC is beating Bama or Georgia. After them it could be a tossup as early as next season. Texas A&M coming up fast as well so we see if they get their name in the top of the SEC in the next couple years. Out problem is finding linemen both on defense and offense nothing changes until we do. QB has no chance to make plays RB is stuffed because no where to run. Linemen win football games were still trying to get some that can play.

 

[rocketskates]

No need to rub it in the that your favorite schools administration have been less dumb than ours has been the past ten years.

 

[I_Bleed_Orange77]

It do if 23 5 to7 gaterd you hate no gonna wait time him give, Fulmer Christian!!!!! I'm attempting to communicate in Volnationese; give me time to get the hang of it.

Literally nobody on this site types like that.

 

[Section KK]

If we are putting players in the NFL, blowing out weak opponents, being competitive in every game, not losing games because of math and clock management blunders, and putting players in the NFL then 9-3 will be fine. That will show that the championships will come.

The SEC is the closest league to the NFL, where the best record is 13-3. What Alabama has done is partly related to the impatience of every other SEc program.

 

[BenGrimm]

Playing Alabama every year has never cost us anything.

Funny we also complain cause we seem to get every secw team while they are "up." Fact is, we suck and dont like playing good teams cause it makes us look bad.

We have had an uncanny knack for landing the second best West team almost every year for the past 7-8 years. The last time we got a West team that was down was Ole Miss in 2010 which was the last time we beat a West team until Auburn this year. We did get lucky and hit Auburn at just the right time this year.

The one exception was probably Butch losing to Arkansas.

I’m not calling it an excuse. Thems the breaks. Beat all the East teams and we would most likely win the East even with Bama on the schedule.

 

[peaygolf]

Respectfully, we didn't fire Fulmer just to be stable. Luckily, I can count on Vols fans turning on whoever the hfc is if he isn't winning at a good clip by his third season. If this team has good bones in the roster by the end of 2020 but isn't looking like a 9-win program, we should be able to finally hire the kind of coach that most of us seem to want every time a search kicks off. Worst thing we could do is let CJP rebuild the lines in his first few recruiting classes and then let him re-drain the talent level while overstaying his welcome in the name of stability.

Ok.. but steady improvement I will take at this time.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

3 years is the new 5 years.

Very few programs give their coaches 5 years anymore.

If the team is better in year three than year two, he'll get a fourth year. If that year is better than year three, he get's a fifth. Same as Jones.

Although Jones was arguably not better in year four, but it is hard to fire a fourth year, nine-win coach.

 

[njvols]

Just some food for thought…..

There have not been a lot of coaching changes over the years at Tennessee. From 1964 to 2008, Tennessee had 4 head coaches. Since 2009, they have had 4 head coaches.

Dickey had a quick turnaround from the previous regime. Year 1 was a rebuild, but after that, he won. Battle won with what he inherited, then it declined (a poor man’s Larry Coker). Then, came Johnny. It took Johnny a long time to get it going. When I say long time, I mean that a coach today would have been fired twice with the leash he was given. And of course, Phil won with what he inherited and ran with it.

Now, I don’t know how much different things were in 1964 vs. 1977, but maybe there are some on the board who do.

The question I have is….is 4 to 5 years a reasonable amount of time to make the turnaround you’re looking for? Is a Johnny Majors’ rebuild vs. a Doug Dickey rebuild what has to take place? If in year 4, 5, Tennessee is winning 9 games, but no SEC Title, no SEC East, a poor record vs. Bama, Florida, and Georgia…..do you abandon ship or give Pruitt more time?

There are all kinds of jokes about “year 0”, but there was a certain logic to that when Dooley said it and there may be more logic to it now. Pruitt did become head coach after arguably Tennessee’s worst season ever. First time losing 8. First time without a conference win. Does that warrant more time?

Anyway, thought it might be worth posting, because after thinking about it, I’m not sure getting to Atlanta by year 4 is a realistic goal. And no, I’m not in the “Tennessee is done” crowd.

And for those who say....easy for you to say....look what Mullen did. Florida didn't beat Georgia. Didn't win the East. Didn't win the SEC. Didn't play Bama (and Bama is not a rival), so he wont have to answer "when are you going to beat Bama" questions. As good a year as Florida had and as happy as I am, I don't know exactly when Florida is winning the East or the SEC either.

If we're in position to capitalize on weaker 2019 schedule, should see improvement in wins in 2019. If we get the right OC, think 2020 could be pretty good year. Before we start thinking about winning the east, we need to figure out how to get to 8-9 wins. If we can do that, it will help us start to build consistency and higher expectations.

 

[MWAVolfan]

If we dont have a solid team in 5 years he isnt good. But we should see drastic difference in year 2. Doesnt mean it translates to win all the sudden, but if we dont look competent next season its time for concern.

IF UT waits 5 years to find out this time, the program really is done.

 

[MWAVolfan]

I think Butch had a decent resume here in his first 4 years, if not for the 4-8 season and losing out on the sugar bowl, beating Florida and Georgia with potential to win the east if it weren’t for the LSU blunder, 5-0 start in 2016, I was a pretty content UT fan. Realizing a coach will have his ups and downs. 5-7, 7-6, 9-4, 9-4 with 3 bowl wins I was happy with (minus the sugar bowl bid). Brighter football minds saw the 4-8 buzz saw coming but I didn’t.

So consistent improvement is what I’m looking for and it has to show in wins and losses. If at any point we miss another bowl bid during his tenure here, I still give him 4 years total, but really start to re evaluate and look what’s out there. JMO

I'm not a fan of consistent incremental improvement. I dont believe that's how you bring a program back. You just dont have that much time when good players can check out before graduation.

I truly good coach can have a team absolutely competing for the SEC title by year 3.
UT has always had the budget to recruit all over the US. Money isnt an issue in the SEC, ever. Recruiting 20 to 25 of your palyers each year and coaching them up means you can have 40-50 of YOUR hand picked players on the team. That should be plenty enough to compete if you can coach and develop.
The thing is you need a university and administration aligned on the idea of winning no matter what.
If that happens, you can resurect any SEC power program quickly.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

If we are not at least a 9-4 type of team by year 3, then something is wrong. Hope this answers your question.

 

[MAUSERWERKE]

You guys went 4-7 last year we went 4-8, y’all beat us on a last second Hail Mary at your house. We both play in the sec east and both had new head coaches at the helm this year, both had roughly the same 4 year recruiting average, if there is a more comparable group to each other than these two I’d like to see it. You guys finished the year with 11 wins and a top 10 ranking, we finished the year looking like the damn bad news bears and only slightly improved our overall record while getting destroyed a lot more often. People keep saying you can’t compare the two but my question is why not? They should be very comparable.

I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. Lot's of fans were pointing to how poorly UF played in 2017 and how similar UT and UF were. I always felt that UF had a far superior roster to the Vols, even in 2017. UF had a number of players suspended during the year who returned in 2018. The fact is, year in and year out, UF is almost always going to have (at least on paper) a roster superior to the Vols. UF can recruit every 4 and 5 star athlete they need and never leave the state of Florida. It's just easier for them to restock. Particularly when FSU and Miami are having troubles, as they are now, UF will clean up. I like nothing more than UT thrashing the Gators, but let's face it, UT couldn't reliably beat Florida even when UT was at the pinnacle of their success. I don't see that changing, unfortunately.

 

[NashVol4life]

I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. Lot's of fans were pointing to how poorly UF played in 2017 and how similar UT and UF were. I always felt that UF had a far superior roster to the Vols, even in 2017. UF had a number of players suspended during the year who returned in 2018. The fact is, year in and year out, UF is almost always going to have (at least on paper) a roster superior to the Vols. UF can recruit every 4 and 5 star athlete they need and never leave the state of Florida. It's just easier for them to restock. Particularly when FSU and Miami are having troubles, as they are now, UF will clean up. I like nothing more than UT thrashing the Gators, but let's face it, UT couldn't reliably beat Florida even when UT was at the pinnacle of their success. I don't see that changing, unfortunately.

Just look at the number of players that are NFL draft prospects this year between both programs. No comparison...

 

[Jackcrevol]

We have had an uncanny knack for landing the second best West team almost every year for the past 7-8 years. The last time we got a West team that was down was Ole Miss in 2010 which was the last time we beat a West team until Auburn this year. We did get lucky and hit Auburn at just the right time this year.

The one exception was probably Butch losing to Arkansas.

I’m not calling it an excuse. Thems the breaks. Beat all the East teams and we would most likely win the East even with Bama on the schedule.

DW, Arkansas will be a top 3 team when we get them next. DW, LSU will have hired Saban back by time we get them next. DW. Miss State will have hired Saban from LSU next time we get them. Rinse/Repeat.

I dont want to drop Bama, cause i dont want to look like a quitter. But if the SEC wants to discontinue the rivalry, i wont complain.

In meantime we have to get better, starts at UTAD. Fulmer was a good start. Then they cannned the only female with enough stones to piss on haslam.

 

[volfannbama]

we play West teams when they're good. its been a fact for years.

we do a fine enough job of making ourselves look bad. dont need anyone else to do that for us.

If we were good we wouldnt look bad. Other teams have nothing to do with us looking bad.

 

[ProudVOLfan]

It do if 23 5 to7 gaterd you hate no gonna wait time him give, Fulmer Christian!!!!! I'm attempting to communicate in Volnationese; give me time to get the hang of it.

 

[morristown vol]

The limit of 25 signees each year will delay how quickly CJP and crew can turn it around thru recruiting. The ONLY way to accelerate the process is to hit on your JC players with recruits of equal talent to Tier 1 or Tier 2 teams.

SEC roster/talent rankings are--IMO-- going to continue this way:

Tier 1. BAMA and UGA. (I think aTm will be the next team to be on this level)
Tier 2. LSU, aTm, Fla, Aub
Tier 3. Mizzou, MSU, and USCe. (KY was the statistical outlier this year--but they will lose most of their talent)

When we cannot compete with the likes of Vandy we know that the talent gap between UT and these programs over the past 2 years has been significant.
Only the ignorant and irrational fail to see the obvious talent discrepancies in our program at every position.

Therefore, to answer your question....

1. We only close the talent gap thru recruiting. Winning games that we shouldn't win helps recruiting. We won 2 we had no business winning in 2018 based solely on talent, and lost 1 (USCe) where the talent gap was much smaller except for a few skill positions.

2. You mentioned 9 win seasons in year 4 and 5--I assume that means a 9-3 regular season with no SEC East title. That would put us at 5-3 in the SEC.
I assume those losses are to Bama, UGa, and another Tier 2 or 3 team.

I think that those are reasonable expectations for year 4 and 5 with the added caveat that none of the 3 teams from the SEC beat us by more than 10 points.

3. Year 4 will give CJP and crew 3 recruiting classes plus what they could scramble to sign before year 1. That means the team would consist solely of CJP's recruits. I would hope that our year 4 team would be VERY competitive with BAMA and be very close to beating everyone else.

4. I would HOPE that CJP's year 5 team would win the SEC East--with a 6-2 or 7-1 SEC record.

5. Ultimately I would hope that CJP is THE COACH who can lead us to consistent 9 win seasons--which equates to a 75% winning record. Of course, I would expect to win the SEC championship at least once every 3 or 4 years.

Johnny Majors would've gotten us to the level that CPF did IF he could've recruited better QBs after the special '85 Sugar Vols.
But Andy Kelly was the best he could get between '85 until Heath Shuler took over.

So, to me, CJP and crew will get good OL and DL, LBs, etc...etc...etc... But they will have to get an ELITE QB to get the VOLS to Tier 1.

That my feelings exactly,we have to give it till year 4 and hope we have a coach that can up us on top again.At this point what choice do we have.

 

[VolunteerCeltic]

Lets be honest, if UT isnt winning 9+ games by year 3, then Pruitt will be shown the door. 3 things need to happen for Pruitt to be here after 3 years;

1. Have the same S&C coach for all three years
2. Develop, develop, develop-This is something that this program has lacked for quite some time; hard work wins against talent that does not work hard......
3. He is going to have to beat Florida and Georgia at least once and end the losing streak against Vandy

3A. Almost forgot, hire a competent Offensive Coordinator

 

[OldLofter]

What’s up 99?!!!

My opinion is probably not going to be a popular one. We don’t have a lot of NFL type talent on the roster. Maybe we are bringing some in, I don’t follow it much, but currently, on the offensive side of the ball, at the positions that matter, we are not close.

Pruitt just needs to make a little progress over time for me to be happy. Until we have significant improvement in the O line, we won’t be able to score enough points, control time of possession, etc...this OC hire would be a good start, I don’t think hiring from within will sit well, but it might be his only choice, which may say volumes about where the program is and about how he is selling it to prospective assistants.

Time will tell.

66 makes a very valid and often overlooked point. Hiring coaches (like the current OC search) is similar to recruiting. A little better this year, and then a little better next year...
CJP's initial coaching staff was a really good start. But, as we can see from the OC search, it starts to get a little tougher until we show some improvement on the field.
CJP may have to settle for someone short on experience who is looking to show what he can do. Or, an internal hire. Neither of which will excite the fan base.

 

[Tin Man]

Why are Vols fans replying to a thread posted by a Gayduh interloper?

 

[chuck0303]

Just some food for thought…..

There have not been a lot of coaching changes over the years at Tennessee. From 1964 to 2008, Tennessee had 4 head coaches. Since 2009, they have had 4 head coaches.

Dickey had a quick turnaround from the previous regime. Year 1 was a rebuild, but after that, he won. Battle won with what he inherited, then it declined (a poor man’s Larry Coker). Then, came Johnny. It took Johnny a long time to get it going. When I say long time, I mean that a coach today would have been fired twice with the leash he was given. And of course, Phil won with what he inherited and ran with it.

Now, I don’t know how much different things were in 1964 vs. 1977, but maybe there are some on the board who do.

The question I have is….is 4 to 5 years a reasonable amount of time to make the turnaround you’re looking for? Is a Johnny Majors’ rebuild vs. a Doug Dickey rebuild what has to take place? If in year 4, 5, Tennessee is winning 9 games, but no SEC Title, no SEC East, a poor record vs. Bama, Florida, and Georgia…..do you abandon ship or give Pruitt more time?

There are all kinds of jokes about “year 0”, but there was a certain logic to that when Dooley said it and there may be more logic to it now. Pruitt did become head coach after arguably Tennessee’s worst season ever. First time losing 8. First time without a conference win. Does that warrant more time?

Anyway, thought it might be worth posting, because after thinking about it, I’m not sure getting to Atlanta by year 4 is a realistic goal. And no, I’m not in the “Tennessee is done” crowd.

And for those who say....easy for you to say....look what Mullen did. Florida didn't beat Georgia. Didn't win the East. Didn't win the SEC. Didn't play Bama (and Bama is not a rival), so he wont have to answer "when are you going to beat Bama" questions. As good a year as Florida had and as happy as I am, I don't know exactly when Florida is winning the East or the SEC either.

In today's (I want instant gratification) era, college coaches especially have incredible pressure to win, and win now. All you have to do is look around at how many coaches get fired after 1,2 ,3 seasons. At Texas, the coach got canned after 2 seasons then they brought in Coach Hermann. Yes, a lot of it is coaching/developing players but you still have to use what you have until you can recruit & improve upon what players you need. Say what you want about Kiffin, but had we had a kicker then he would've beaten Bama with the players he had; he got them to excel from what they were when he took over.
Bama went through several coaches before they hired Saban and it took him 2-3 years to get substantially improved. In Coach Pruitt's case, he knows from coaching championship teams what type athletes it takes to compete and not all 5 stars are going to sign up with TN right now, unlike Bama today. I think he'll get there but certainly not overnight. Our expectations are always through the roof at TN; rightfully so, but be a realist too.
As to the Gators, the only concern I have about them is beating them--every time--that's what true fans do--support their team. As a dye-hard TN fan I've worn out the "wait til next year" mantra. It's disheartening to keep being an optimist when the success we want seems to elude us. Still, I'm hanging in there. From here we can only go up. Go VOLS!

 

[CardsNVols]

We should have a good idea by year 3 as to whether or not Pruitt will cut it. 2019 will be pretty telling on its own IMO. That doesn't mean he needs to win the SEC by 2020, or even the East, but I do believe we will know by then how long of a leash he deserves.

Regarding the revolving door of coaches the last 10 years, UT's problems are the result of years of non-football people making important football decisions, and they were on the verge of making another one in November 2017 with such names as Greg Schiano and Dave Doeren being sought after.

I'm not one of the mouth breathers who believes that athletics should overshadow academics at a major university, but I do generally believe that a school with the resources and tradition of a Tennessee would do well to keep its AD firmly in the hands of people who know how to manage it. They have neglected to do so for a long time now.

 

[MWAVolfan]

We should have a good idea by year 3 as to whether or not Pruitt will cut it. 2019 will be pretty telling on its own IMO. That doesn't mean he needs to win the SEC by 2020, or even the East, but I do believe we will know by then how long of a leash he deserves.

Regarding the revolving door of coaches the last 10 years, UT's problems are the result of years of non-football people making important football decisions, and they were on the verge of making another one in November 2017 with such names as Greg Schiano and Dave Doeren being sought after.

I'm not one of the mouth breathers who believes that athletics should overshadow academics at a major university, but I do generally believe that a school with the resources and tradition of a Tennessee would do well to keep its AD firmly in the hands of people who know how to manage it. They have neglected to do so for a long time now.

if UT contiues to flop around like a flounder out of water in 2019, cut bait and run cause that stuff aint workin.

 

[ckjoneskevin]

We should have a good idea by year 3 as to whether or not Pruitt will cut it. 2019 will be pretty telling on its own IMO. That doesn't mean he needs to win the SEC by 2020, or even the East, but I do believe we will know by then how long of a leash he deserves.

Regarding the revolving door of coaches the last 10 years, UT's problems are the result of years of non-football people making important football decisions, and they were on the verge of making another one in November 2017 with such names as Greg Schiano and Dave Doeren being sought after.

I'm not one of the mouth breathers who believes that athletics should overshadow academics at a major university, but I do generally believe that a school with the resources and tradition of a Tennessee would do well to keep its AD firmly in the hands of people who know how to manage it. They have neglected to do so for a long time now.

Here's the thing, this is his first true recruiting class, they need to be juniors to see what he is doing with the team. That will be 2021, of course your looking at starting a new QB that season, but by then you should see huge development of OL and the defense should be installed completely for a couple of years and have experienced players and be able to carry the offense if needed while breaking in a new QB, which looks to be Harrison Barnes at this point. I think people should look at the job Dabo has done when given the opportunity. Upper class men are really needed that understand the system to help the new guys, Pruitt doesn't have that, in 3 or 4 years when this class is juniors he will. That is when development and leadership really helps. Not taking away from the players Butch recruited, they are Vols, and Pruitt's players now, but the juniors and seniors missed the 3/4 years of development and system understanding to be as integral as a normal senior class would be. Just my 2 cents.