The rebuild

[i2amavol]

If we dont have a solid team in 5 years he isnt good. But we should see drastic difference in year 2. Doesnt mean it translates to win all the sudden, but if we dont look competent next season its time for concern.

Many times in rebuilds year 2 is worse than year one. I expect that we will be better, but it is not guaranteed. Now, if we tank in recruiting or don't have major improvement by year 3, then it doesn't look good.

That is my expectation with any new coach. This opinion is no reflection on Coach Pruitt, just the facts as I see them. I am more than happy with Coach Pruitt thus far, so long as he gets a decent OC to build for the future.

 

[Rudy123]

4 - 5 years will only happen IF we continue to kick butt in recruiting & it depends how other SEC rival schools do.
If Bama rehires Shula. If UGA rehires Richt & Florida rehires Zook we can move up.
I think we should gradually improve each season just like Ky has done over the past 20 years. Then at some,point, UGA, Bama & Florida will slip a little and qe will be in striking distance to overtake them

 

[Tarkus]

You guys went 4-7 last year we went 4-8, y’all beat us on a last second Hail Mary at your house. We both play in the sec east and both had new head coaches at the helm this year, both had roughly the same 4 year recruiting average, if there is a more comparable group to each other than these two I’d like to see it. You guys finished the year with 11 wins and a top 10 ranking, we finished the year looking like the damn bad news bears and only slightly improved our overall record while getting destroyed a lot more often. People keep saying you can’t compare the two but my question is why not? They should be very comparable.

The reason it's a silly comparison is because it's lazy. You can't count stars on recruiting rankings and think that means teams are equal. Our biggest problem,that really caused most of our inability to be competitive, was line play on both sides of the ball. Simply comparing class rankings doesn't tell anyone whether positional needs were met. We could recruit a boat load of skill players, have very high recruiting rankings and without a bunch of highly ranked linemen, we would still be bad no matter who is coaching us. Great line play wins in the SEC. Until we recruit better linemen, we aren't going to get much done.

 

[volfannbama]

Many times in rebuilds year 2 is worse than year one. I expect that we will be better, but it is not guaranteed. Now, if we tank in recruiting or don't have major improvement by year 3, then it doesn't look good.

That is my expectation with any new coach. This opinion is no reflection on Coach Pruitt, just the facts as I see them. I am more than happy with Coach Pruitt thus far, so long as he gets a decent OC to build for the future.

I didnt a pretty lengthy post a while back of new coaches that most people consider to be good coaches. The overwhelming majority see the best improvement in year two, some year three.
If after four year we dont see major improvement, its not likely to happen.

 

[LivinginthePast]

We beat Georgia in 2015 2016 and now we could not sustain that? Damn it man.

 

[lifeisdeep]

I hope Gators never win another game....

Go VOLS

Pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[BenGrimm]

Had Butch won the East in 16 I think 17 would have been more like 7-5 and Butch would still have been here this year.

But the fact is he choked the season away with losses to SC and Vandy. At that point the program became toxic. The fans lost faith in his ability to get it done and I think the players did too and quit on him.

Unfortunately TN is already behind the 8 ball with Bama on the schedule. That means being perfect in the East is a must to win the Division.

That said, I think next year better be a bowl game. Next needs to at least beat FL or UGA with a 8ish win finish. Year 4 and forward needs to be in the conversation to win the East. Back to back 6 or 7 wins seasons after year 4 means Pruitt has maxed out.

It’s hard to tell fans to be patient but there is no quick fix for TN.

 

[HuntlandVolinColo]

Just some food for thought…..

There have not been a lot of coaching changes over the years at Tennessee. From 1964 to 2008, Tennessee had 4 head coaches. Since 2009, they have had 4 head coaches.

Dickey had a quick turnaround from the previous regime. Year 1 was a rebuild, but after that, he won. Battle won with what he inherited, then it declined (a poor man’s Larry Coker). Then, came Johnny. It took Johnny a long time to get it going. When I say long time, I mean that a coach today would have been fired twice with the leash he was given. And of course, Phil won with what he inherited and ran with it.

Now, I don’t know how much different things were in 1964 vs. 1977, but maybe there are some on the board who do.

The question I have is….is 4 to 5 years a reasonable amount of time to make the turnaround you’re looking for? Is a Johnny Majors’ rebuild vs. a Doug Dickey rebuild what has to take place? If in year 4, 5, Tennessee is winning 9 games, but no SEC Title, no SEC East, a poor record vs. Bama, Florida, and Georgia…..do you abandon ship or give Pruitt more time?

There are all kinds of jokes about “year 0”, but there was a certain logic to that when Dooley said it and there may be more logic to it now. Pruitt did become head coach after arguably Tennessee’s worst season ever. First time losing 8. First time without a conference win. Does that warrant more time?

Anyway, thought it might be worth posting, because after thinking about it, I’m not sure getting to Atlanta by year 4 is a realistic goal. And no, I’m not in the “Tennessee is done” crowd.

And for those who say....easy for you to say....look what Mullen did. Florida didn't beat Georgia. Didn't win the East. Didn't win the SEC. Didn't play Bama (and Bama is not a rival), so he wont have to answer "when are you going to beat Bama" questions. As good a year as Florida had and as happy as I am, I don't know exactly when Florida is winning the East or the SEC either.

Good post. I would imagine LSU was Florida's best win last season, straw man Michigan a close second. For Tennessee it was most definitely Auburn and Kentucky.

At first a 5+ year rebuild doesn't really make since because you turnover a sizeable portion of your team in 3 seasons. The problem is and as we are finding out, until you win better you don't get enough of those prized recruits. If we win say 8 games next season (very doable), then we will get more 4/5 stars but not on the level that Bama/aTm/Georgia/LSU/OSU are raking in. So we need to win 10 games and then we get more competitive and bring in bigger, better, faster, stronger studs. Once we can consistently win 10 games or more a season then we can recruit head to head with the big boys, especially considering our facilities and K-Town compared to most other places in SEC (Nashville and Athens are the only areas comparable but don't have facilities).

It's possible that Mullen wakes up a sleeping giant. I don't know how Florida recruits so badly in such a target rich area. I don't see Miami and FSU doing anything special right now either. So there is a vacuum that is mainly being filled by out of state poachers and UCF.

 

[utvols74]

Thanks for posting Gator....Happy New Year

In my opinion, CJP knows what he wants he team's philosophy to be and I think it looks quite a bit like Bama - strong upfront 7 defense; 2-3 big smash-mouth RBs; a decent TE to get you out of third and long; 3 huge guys at Center, R-OG and L-OG and a "play manager" type QB. Talent at the other positions gives you options but what I listed are his "bread/butter".

The trick is recruiting coaches who want to come to UT which fit his philosophy and have upside. He may allow them to "tweak" things here and there....but he wants to establish an "identity" to UT football. If he can do this and fill the pipeline with coaches/players - he'll be successful.

His voice and that of the other coaches can't be the only recruiting tactic he uses on prospective players. Players must want to come to UT for a variety of reasons - not just the relationship with a position coach or two.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

3 years is the new 5 years.

Very few programs give their coaches 5 years anymore.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

Thanks for posting Gator....Happy New Year

In my opinion, CJP knows what he wants he team's philosophy to be and I think it looks quite a bit like Bama - strong upfront 7 defense; 2-3 big smash-mouth RBs; a decent TE to get you out of third and long; 3 huge guys at Center, R-OG and L-OG and a "play manager" type QB. Talent at the other positions gives you options but what I listed are his "bread/butter".

The trick is recruiting coaches who want to come to UT which fit his philosophy and have upside. He may allow them to "tweak" things here and there....but he wants to establish an "identity" to UT football. If he can do this and fill the pipeline with coaches/players - he'll be successful.

His voice and that of the other coaches can't be the only recruiting tactic he uses on prospective players. Players must want to come to UT for a variety of reasons - not just the relationship with a position coach or two.

Personally wouldn't call Tua a game manager type and Bama is starting to become an NFL pipeline for WR as well.

Point being even Saban has acknowledged the need for a potent offense. I hope Pruitt understands that as well and goes for more than an offense to try and manage the game.

 

[volgrad500]

You guys went 4-7 last year we went 4-8, y’all beat us on a last second Hail Mary at your house. We both play in the sec east and both had new head coaches at the helm this year, both had roughly the same 4 year recruiting average, if there is a more comparable group to each other than these two I’d like to see it. You guys finished the year with 11 wins and a top 10 ranking, we finished the year looking like the damn bad news bears and only slightly improved our overall record while getting destroyed a lot more often. People keep saying you can’t compare the two but my question is why not? They should be very comparable.

It's hard for some people to be honest with themselves.

 

[peaygolf]

I don't see any reason to give him more slack than Dooley got. 23 more months.

In the past, I might have agreed. Now.....if there is any improvement from year to year, I say keep CJP for a while , stay the course. This program needs some freaking stability. Tired of the quick fix bs.

 

[knox73]

I don’t agree with this. Battle inherited great talent from Dickey and won 11, 10, 10 in his first three seasons. He couldn’t sustain it because he and his staff didn’t recruit well enough and didn’t leave Majors a lot of talent.

It’s kind of where we are now. Anyone that grew up watching Peyton, Al, Stanley, Condridge, and those offensive/defensive lines can see it plain as day. Anybody who watches Bama and Clemson can see it plain as day.

When I think about it like that, a little historical context, Pruitt probably did better than he should have this past season.

Absolutely correct. Battle took over the top program in the SEC and destroyed it in short order. Majors took over the worst program in 1977. Battle likely would not have won a game with that bunch. Majors was a Vol hero and did not get any breaks early on - career ending injuries to key players, etc. To me this was Year 0 for Pruitt. He took over the worst team in the league but unlike Johnny, he does not have the personality or national champ HC resume (a Bammer to boot) and may not have the capital to take the long rebuilding path Majors had. However I think Pruitt is a solid hire and can get it done if fans can be patient and enjoy the rebuilding era which will be hard and painful at times to watch. The major dummy in Vol coaching history was Doug Dickey. He had built a powerhouse at UT, then went home to Gainesville and flopped. Adolph Rupp said at the time “Why would a main leave paradise?” Referring to Dickey changing jobs. Of course Majors left a powerhouse at Pitt and could not duplicate the same success in Knoxville. Pruitt should do ok but the ridiculous recruiting limits make it really a challenge to rebuild once a program falls to the bottom of the league.

 

[ptclaus98]

There are conditions that he could get to 5 years without winning anything. It's the sixth year that's the rub. He's already lost some equity, but even Butch Jones was basically at deaths door and made it 2 more years. And next year's schedule is much much easier than 2014, and 2011. That being said, the last point can be a negative for Pruitt. There's nothing to prove that Tennessee is ready to make a jump, but you lose to a MSU, Mizzou, SC, or Kentucky next year on top of losing to the big 3 on the schedule, then it really doesn't seem like we've made a step forward. God forbid you lose more than one of those or more than one of those and Vandy beats you again. It will continue to mire the program in apathy and suck the energy out of the fans. And this program desperately needs a lot of energy. Going 8-4 next year is such a big leap forward, but anything less and I don't think a lot of people will gain any confidence in this regime. Next year just seems like a no-win in terms of the health of our program. But I guess if Kentucky can go plus 3 in a year where the East improved, then it's not impossible for Tennessee to in an East that looks in decline.

 

[reeceb73]

We just don't have enough good players. It's hard to believe Butch was so bad at building a roster, but it certainly appears he was. I do believe lack of S&C and development played a BIG part in this.

Pruitt had almost no decent lineman which killed this season. FL flat out man handled us at the line of scrimmage, along with a lot of other teams.

We have 2 potential studs on the OL in recruiting this year. If our OL makes a big step forward, we will compete, but if we don't, another terrible season.

By year 3, if the OL is still getting pushed around, then I feel we are in trouble with this staff. Fair or not, I just can't fathom being terrible 3 straight years on the OL

 

[ConantheVolbarian]

Just some food for thought…..

There have not been a lot of coaching changes over the years at Tennessee. From 1964 to 2008, Tennessee had 4 head coaches. Since 2009, they have had 4 head coaches.

Dickey had a quick turnaround from the previous regime. Year 1 was a rebuild, but after that, he won. Battle won with what he inherited, then it declined (a poor man’s Larry Coker). Then, came Johnny. It took Johnny a long time to get it going. When I say long time, I mean that a coach today would have been fired twice with the leash he was given. And of course, Phil won with what he inherited and ran with it.

Now, I don’t know how much different things were in 1964 vs. 1977, but maybe there are some on the board who do.

The question I have is….is 4 to 5 years a reasonable amount of time to make the turnaround you’re looking for? Is a Johnny Majors’ rebuild vs. a Doug Dickey rebuild what has to take place? If in year 4, 5, Tennessee is winning 9 games, but no SEC Title, no SEC East, a poor record vs. Bama, Florida, and Georgia…..do you abandon ship or give Pruitt more time?

There are all kinds of jokes about “year 0”, but there was a certain logic to that when Dooley said it and there may be more logic to it now. Pruitt did become head coach after arguably Tennessee’s worst season ever. First time losing 8. First time without a conference win. Does that warrant more time?

Anyway, thought it might be worth posting, because after thinking about it, I’m not sure getting to Atlanta by year 4 is a realistic goal. And no, I’m not in the “Tennessee is done” crowd.

And for those who say....easy for you to say....look what Mullen did. Florida didn't beat Georgia. Didn't win the East. Didn't win the SEC. Didn't play Bama (and Bama is not a rival), so he wont have to answer "when are you going to beat Bama" questions. As good a year as Florida had and as happy as I am, I don't know exactly when Florida is winning the East or the SEC either.

It depends on the circumstances. Not every situation is the same. By year 3, Butch had the horses to win the East and blew it. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the next year or two.

 

[Rudy123]

Many times in rebuilds year 2 is worse than year one. I expect that we will be better, but it is not guaranteed. Now, if we tank in recruiting or don't have major improvement by year 3, then it doesn't look good.

That is my expectation with any new coach. This opinion is no reflection on Coach Pruitt, just the facts as I see them. I am more than happy with Coach Pruitt thus far, so long as he gets a decent OC to build for the future.

In Dooley's first season we made it to a bowl game and lost to UNC
In Dooley's 2nd season we had a losing record.
So much for improvements in 2nd year of new coach

 

[JohnnyJava]

A lot about your hypothetical is hard to know. Fulmer is 68. Will he still be the AD four years from now. If not, how will the new guy relate to Pruitt? What type of losses is Pruitt having in year 4 and 5? Really close losses that Pruitt supporters can excuse easily or embarrassing blowouts? Are 90000-100000 showing up for most games or is the stadium only filled with 50000-60000 except for Bama at which crimson nearly outnumbers orange from UT fans selling tickets? It’s a good question, but the circumstances usually determine things and the decision is usually not that hard to make. Hopefully we’ll be pounding Gator ass into the ground by then and you will be talking to your fellow Gator fans about replacing that loser Mullen!

 

[VolsGrad1989]

You guys went 4-7 last year we went 4-8, y’all beat us on a last second Hail Mary at your house. We both play in the sec east and both had new head coaches at the helm this year, both had roughly the same 4 year recruiting average, if there is a more comparable group to each other than these two I’d like to see it. You guys finished the year with 11 wins and a top 10 ranking, we finished the year looking like the damn bad news bears and only slightly improved our overall record while getting destroyed a lot more often. People keep saying you can’t compare the two but my question is why not? They should be very comparable.

I agree to a point. I think Mullen is a hell of a coach. I wasn't happy when UF got him!!! I wanted UT to get him. However, I think the UF staff did a lot better recruiting between the trenches for the past 5 years. As smart as Dooley and Butch appeared to be at times, they were dumb as hell to not recruit BIG NASTIES (with the bad azz attitudes) at OL and DL!!! I also think Pruitt will do better in the LONG RUN than Mullen. I just hope I am not too optimistic on this due to looking through ORANGE COLORED LENSES!!! LOL

 

[VolsGrad1989]

Had Butch won the East in 16 I think 17 would have been more like 7-5 and Butch would still have been here this year.

But the fact is he choked the season away with losses to SC and Vandy. At that point the program became toxic. The fans lost faith in his ability to get it done and I think the players did too and quit on him.

Unfortunately TN is already behind the 8 ball with Bama on the schedule. That means being perfect in the East is a must to win the Division.

That said, I think next year better be a bowl game. Next needs to at least beat FL or UGA with a 8ish win finish. Year 4 and forward needs to be in the conversation to win the East. Back to back 6 or 7 wins seasons after year 4 means Pruitt has maxed out.

It’s hard to tell fans to be patient but there is no quick fix for TN.

YES, IT IS COMPLETE BS WE ARE THE ONLY SEC EAST TEAM TO PLAY BAMA EVERY YEAR. I love the rivalry. But, it puts UT at a disadvantage, period! It is not an excuse. It is a FACT with Bama's dominance as of late! All East teams should ROTATE ALL THE WEST TEAMS, PERIOD!!! That is the only way for it to be fair!!! What if UGA had to play Bama every year during the regular season every year? If that happened when UF and UT was up there in the top three of the East, UGA likely misses the SEC Championship at least 8 of 10 years!!!

 

[photovol]

Just some food for thought…..

There have not been a lot of coaching changes over the years at Tennessee. From 1964 to 2008, Tennessee had 4 head coaches. Since 2009, they have had 4 head coaches.

Dickey had a quick turnaround from the previous regime. Year 1 was a rebuild, but after that, he won. Battle won with what he inherited, then it declined (a poor man’s Larry Coker). Then, came Johnny. It took Johnny a long time to get it going. When I say long time, I mean that a coach today would have been fired twice with the leash he was given. And of course, Phil won with what he inherited and ran with it.

Now, I don’t know how much different things were in 1964 vs. 1977, but maybe there are some on the board who do.

The question I have is….is 4 to 5 years a reasonable amount of time to make the turnaround you’re looking for? Is a Johnny Majors’ rebuild vs. a Doug Dickey rebuild what has to take place? If in year 4, 5, Tennessee is winning 9 games, but no SEC Title, no SEC East, a poor record vs. Bama, Florida, and Georgia…..do you abandon ship or give Pruitt more time?

There are all kinds of jokes about “year 0”, but there was a certain logic to that when Dooley said it and there may be more logic to it now. Pruitt did become head coach after arguably Tennessee’s worst season ever. First time losing 8. First time without a conference win. Does that warrant more time?

Anyway, thought it might be worth posting, because after thinking about it, I’m not sure getting to Atlanta by year 4 is a realistic goal. And no, I’m not in the “Tennessee is done” crowd.

And for those who say....easy for you to say....look what Mullen did. Florida didn't beat Georgia. Didn't win the East. Didn't win the SEC. Didn't play Bama (and Bama is not a rival), so he wont have to answer "when are you going to beat Bama" questions. As good a year as Florida had and as happy as I am, I don't know exactly when Florida is winning the East or the SEC either.

Aren't you a long way from home, Pal?

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

In the past, I might have agreed. Now.....if there is any improvement from year to year, I say keep CJP for a while , stay the course. This program needs some freaking stability. Tired of the quick fix bs.

Respectfully, we didn't fire Fulmer just to be stable. Luckily, I can count on Vols fans turning on whoever the hfc is if he isn't winning at a good clip by his third season. If this team has good bones in the roster by the end of 2020 but isn't looking like a 9-win program, we should be able to finally hire the kind of coach that most of us seem to want every time a search kicks off. Worst thing we could do is let CJP rebuild the lines in his first few recruiting classes and then let him re-drain the talent level while overstaying his welcome in the name of stability.

 

[volfannbama]

YES, IT IS COMPLETE BS WE ARE THE ONLY SEC EAST TEAM TO PLAY BAMA EVERY YEAR. I love the rivalry. But, it puts UT at a disadvantage, period! It is not an excuse. It is a FACT with Bama's dominance as of late! All East teams should ROTATE ALL THE WEST TEAMS, PERIOD!!! That is the only way for it to be fair!!! What if UGA had to play Bama every year during the regular season every year? If that happened when UF and UT was up there in the top three of the East, UGA likely misses the SEC Championship at least 8 of 10 years!!!

Playing Alabama every year has never cost us anything.

Funny we also complain cause we seem to get every secw team while they are "up." Fact is, we suck and dont like playing good teams cause it makes us look bad.

 

[Jackcrevol]

Playing Alabama every year has never cost us anything.

Funny we also complain cause we seem to get every secw team while they are "up." Fact is, we suck and dont like playing good teams cause it makes us look bad.

we play West teams when they're good. its been a fact for years.

we do a fine enough job of making ourselves look bad. dont need anyone else to do that for us.