The real problem with the pass game is PLAYCALLING

#76
#76
JohnMcA60 said:
I agree that Everyone needs to help improve the passing game.( Debord, Azzani, Dobbs, The WRs, TEs, Scott, etc.) I'm glad someone brought this to light because it's not all "josh Dobbs can't throw".
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i think most agree with this. but it's the assertion from OP that none of the passing game woes are due the fact Dobbs isn't the most accurate passer, and that for the passing game to improve, all of the above you mentioned AND Dobbs improving have to happen.

OP suggests that everything EXCEPT dobbs needs fixed.
 
#78
#78
jakez4ut said:
the same thing happened at the end of the half against Bama. we were perfectly happy to head in to half time the way things were....Bama thought we had enough time to try something, and played D accordingly, CBJ ran Hurd and he got that 39 yard scamper that all the sudden perked up the offensive coaches...hilarious.

like said earlier, these stats have no context. we were a run first offense that wasn't going to take chances when we didn't have to. the goal was to control the clock, set the pace and protect against turnovers.

and it, in part, was/is due to the fact that our overall passing game just isn't/wasn't that effective, or efficient.

i do expect that to change this year.
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Dobbs also missed a receiver running wide open right before the half ended. He didn't see it and threw underneath to Wolf, I believe.
 
#79
#79
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Once again the stats don't bear that out. Dobbs converted more 3rd and medium (4-6 yards) and 3rd and longs (7-9 yards) than anyone in the SEC.

So it's FALSE to claim these were screens. You don't convert that many 3rd downs at those distances using screens.

Go back and watch the Kentucky and South Carolina games. That's where you will see Dobbs tearing apart those teams on 3rd down by throwing the ball DOWN THE FIELD.

Contrary to what your trying to imply, Josh was great throwing the ball DOWN THE FIELD on 3rd downs.
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Do you not get the fact that passing yards include yards after catch too. We play a lot of slants, screens, hitches and this is where Hurd, Kamara, Pearson and Wolfe got a lot of yards after catch.
numbers don't tell you the whole story but we watched the games and we saw it happen. I am sure there are game videos out there, go watch them.
 
#80
#80
Look, I am as big a fan of Josh Dobbs as anyone but "feel good" stats are just that. They make you feel good but they don't change anything.

If we are averaging almost 6 yards on first down then a third down pass is going to be a shorter pass which he does well with. If you throw on first down you are looking for more yardage and chunk plays are where he has trouble. I know you can't hit them all but he air mailed a wide open receiver early in the UGA game last year that would have big a good gainer. Wasn't even close and there was nothing but groans from the crowd. The best metric is the one you can see with you eyes. You can make stats tell you whatever you want. What is the old saying, Statisticians lie but numbers don't.

Joshua is a great player, but he isn't perfect anymore than Peyton was. Let's hope another year of coaching and working on his footwork will get him to the next level and a nice career there. If he only improves modestly and takes care of the ball our team should be fine.

It would great if he were to win the Heismann as your name suggests, but I like the saying CPF used in 98 that went something like - It is amazing what a team can do when no one cares who gets the credit.
 
#81
#81
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Well then rewatch the games like I do. The South Carolina and Kentucky games where we converted an incredible amount of 3rd downs is on YouTube. Rewatch them and see the beautiful passes Dobbs throws down the field on 3rd down.
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The first complaint about Dobbs is inconsistency. So you cherry pick games when he was great.

The second complaint about Dobbs is over or under throwing by 4 yds ON A 5 YD PASS!
So how do you address this? By blaming the play called?
And he is still a great qb. It would take one of the top 3 in the country for me to even consider trading..
But -
Open receiver, time for Dobbs to throw and he misses by several yds and it's playcalling? lol.


Look man, Dobbs is one of the most beloved players at qb in UT history. You wanting everyone to view him as the second coming of Christ wearing a jersey, seems more of your issue than everyone else's.
 
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#82
#82
I'd be curious to know what our first-down run average was against oklahoma, bama, florida last year. You can't beat good teams and good defenses by predictably running the ball on every first down--and that's pretty much what we do. You have to keep good defenses off balance, which means throwing the ball some on first down--and completing passes. We'll have to get better in that regards. I'm afraid Jones has a lot of Fulmer in him in that he's a very conservative/predictable play caller. Spurrier would be winging on 1st down (and 4th!), and we'd send the tailback off tackle--three yards and a cloud of dust. Jones is the same way. Our conservative, ineffective offense cost us key games last year.
 
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#83
#83
I think we should leave it up to the coaches and the players to decide what mix and type of plays will work best to beat the opponent each week.

That is their role and their job.
 
#84
#84
Volosaurus rex said:
For all of the great situational stats found on cfbstats.com, one insight that it cannot provide is precisely the kind of routes that Josh completes with high percentage and those with which he struggles. As we can all attest, he throws straight down the hash marks with accuracy and velocity. Several of our biggest gains in the passing game last year were on precisely those types of routes to tight ends in the 18-22 yard range. Where Josh struggles typically is completing passes from the hash mark to the sideline, particularly on deeper routes and most especially on good old-fashioned “fly” patterns as we old-timers used to call them.
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Great observation. Agree 100%.
 
#85
#85
We've talked about this all last season--- the pass calling needs to fit Dobbs strengths/range.... we need at least 4-5 quick screens/slants off the line of scrimmage in that bubble area where the DB and LB don't have time to make up ground and its an easy 4-5 yd gain.... throw in some 5-7 (10yd max) hard crossing routes and that is well within Dobbs wheelhouse... quit with the damn 20+ yd bombs down the sideline, its a wasted down and now we are hurting on 3rd because we threw on 2nd after our predictable 1st down studder option fake that everyone in the country knows we will call that only gets us 3yds if lucky... the slants pull the DB and LB in and that sets up the fake/hitch up field for a wide open pass in the flat....
 
#86
#86
volfan102455 said:
I think we should leave it up to the coaches and the players to decide what mix and type of plays will work best to beat the opponent each week.

That is their role and their job.
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It was my understanding that that was still the plan despite the OP's best efforts.
 
#87
#87
Dobbs is a very good qb overall and we can win big time with him. He brings a dynamic to our backfield with his legs that makes our offense far more difficult to defend. The best qb in the country? It is hard for me to see how he will ever be that. I have seen him throw too many passes. There is no doubt that he is a quality qb, but a far cry honestly from the best in the country.
 
#88
#88
- 1st down pass attempts: 12th in the SEC


- 2nd down pass attempts: 5th in the SEC


- 3rd down pass attempts: 3rd in the SEC


[/QUOTE]

The biggest stat that I see here is that we are predictable AF on 1st and 3rd down. I have thought for a long time that we waste first downs regularly running an obvious veer or similar read option play for 1 yard or no gain. It's like we want to start 2nd and 10 every series.
 
#89
#89
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
The great thing about the website cfbstats.com is I can call you out on BS like this.

Dobbs actually led the SEC in converting 3rd and medium (4-6 yards) as well as 3rd and long (7-9 yards) last season.

On plays of 3rd and 4-6 yards to go - cfbstats.com - 2015 Southeastern Conference Player Leaders

- Dobbs was #1 in the SEC with 18 convertions (5 more than the second closest player Dak Prescott).

- Dobbs was 3rd in completion %.

On plays of 3rd and 7-9 yards to go - cfbstats.com - 2015 Southeastern Conference Player Leaders

- Dobbs was once again #1 in the SEC with 16 convertions (5 more than the second closest player once again).

- Dobbs was 6th in the SEC in completion %.


You don't convert 34 3rd downs between 4-9 yards from screen passes. Give credit where credit is due. On 3rd downs, Dobbs balled out last year.
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Add this into the 6 yards per rushing attempt on first down, and you have further justified DeBord's decisions to call the plays like he did. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It is really hard to argue against 6 yards on first down.
 
#90
#90
SayNoToJorts said:
-

The biggest stat that I see here is that we are predictable AF on 1st and 3rd down. I have thought for a long time that we waste first downs regularly running an obvious veer or similar read option play for 1 yard or no gain. It's like we want to start 2nd and 10 every series.
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I wouldn't say we wasted first downs regularly since we averaged better than 5 ypc on 1st down.
 
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#91
#91
Don't we make like... More first downs than anybody but when we set up the long pass that kid that looks like a dandelion always catches it? Something like that.
 
#92
#92
chargervol said:
The first complaint about Dobbs is inconsistency. So you cherry pick games when he was great.

The second complaint about Dobbs is over or under throwing by 4 yds ON A 5 YD PASS!
So how do you address this? By blaming the play called?
And he is still a great qb. It would take one of the top 3 in the country for me to even consider trading..
But -
Open receiver, time for Dobbs to throw and he misses by several yds and it's playcalling? lol.


Look man, Dobbs is one of the most beloved players at qb in UT history. You wanting everyone to view him as the second coming of Christ wearing a jersey, seems more of your issue than everyone else's.
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wow someone watched the same Dobbs I did!
 
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#93
#93
We are not going to be a priority passing team with this backfield we have with Hurd, Kamara,& Kelly. It just ain't gonna happen. I agree that we should have taken more shots in the passing game on 1st & 2nd downs last season but what can we do about it?

We didn't exactly have a trustable WR core either. Malone our leading WR last season dropped way too many passes. Pearson was mainly just a short passing game WR. Josh Smith made a couple of nice catches last season but even he dropped a couple of balls that you just don't see from him.

Preston Williams was injured off & on most of the season so he never really had the chance to show his complete ability. He showed a flash or two though by catching tough passes. I feel we didn't use Ethan Wolf near enough in the passing game. He had a few catches but he should have been thrown to more.

Jennings making the change to WR I feel didn't work out for him. He did ok but he didn't do anything worthy of mentioning. His play on special teams was better than his play at WR. There was rumors he was moving to safety. Is those still true or are they keeping him at WR? I think he would be better off at safety myself.

He can lower the boom on opposing players. I just don't think he fits better at WR. We're going to have plenty enough WR's anyhow if they wanted to switch him to defense.

We did use both Hurd & Kamara well out of the backfield in the passing game. Especially Kamara with his speed & quickness. I expect that to be no different this coming season. Using them both in the passing game.

Of course, Dobbs is a dual threat QB so he has to be respected at both running & passing. However, he's least feared in the passing game mainly due to his inaccuracy. He can make all the short throws really well. It's the medium-long range throws that he seems to miss most of the time. Then again, WR's dropped some of those mid-long range passes as well.

If he improves only a little in those categories(mid-long range) then he will have a special season & lead us to the playoffs I believe. It's not all about the running game because Dobbs will most certainly still need to step up for us in the passing game to take us where we want to go.
 
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#94
#94
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
No. I'm saying mix it up more. Last year we ran the ball 316 times on 1st down compared to 114 pass attempts. That's 73% run to 27% pass on 1st down.

How bout we go 55% run to 45% pass on 1st down?

Become a little more balanced. Who knows it might open up the run game even more if every team doesn't know that we're going to run it on 1st down almost 3 out of every 4 times.
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This, I could actually see (IF it's determined accuracy has improved this summer/fall).

Those stats show Bama attempted to pass on 1st down 187 times to our 114 / for 1719 completed yds to our mere 707. And who had the Heisman rb?

Along with an improved OL + Receiver Corp + improved accuracy over the summer, this type of re-mix might allow Hurd to pick up some longer runs (fewer runs with => total yrdg).
 
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#98
#98
3 is the magic number.

Josh needs to complete 3 more passes per game this year than last.

Simply by going 18-26 rather than 15-26 will make all the difference in the world...that's 3 more tds over the course of the season...a few more first downs...more time off the clock, closer field goal range, ect.

I don't care what down they come on or when they happen in the game. Better accuracy, better routes run, better plays called, better blocking...3 more completions a game. If he goes from 59% to 69% completions...we go to the playoffs.

We've got to get better at every single phase of the game...including #11
 
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#99
#99
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
No. I'm saying mix it up more. Last year we ran the ball 316 times on 1st down compared to 114 pass attempts. That's 73% run to 27% pass on 1st down.

How bout we go 55% run to 45% pass on 1st down?

Become a little more balanced. Who knows it might open up the run game even more if every team doesn't know that we're going to run it on 1st down almost 3 out of every 4 times.
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For all of D4Hs issues on posts, this one is not one of them. He has a great point in that we perhaps should be more balanced on 1st down, maybe not his suggested 55/45 ratio, but certainly our >70% gives opposing Ds a step up on our offense. Think of some of those 4th quarter stagnation 3 n outs we had last year, couple that with Hurd reportedly being unhappy with taking some unnecessary beatings as well. A better passing %age on 1st down could help with those.
 
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#100
#100
Part of the distortion is due to a 60/40 run/pass ratio.

But we should still pass more on 1st down to keep from being so predictable.
 
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