The Problems with Trans-ideology

[Sea Ray]

I meant unnecessary surgeries....

I agree with Hog. To say all "unnecessary plastic surgeries" is asinine. Let's use for example, reconstructive surgery after breast cancer. Medically that's not necessary but most women do opt for it. These women are not mentally ill.

Leave it to the internet to take these things to an asinine extent...

 

[utvolpj]

Call a spade a spade. The person that had their entire face done in order to look like the oppo sex more than likely would follow that up with other surgeries performed below the neck line. Guys getting boobs is mental illness, women making them bigger is elective surgery. Having your penis removed is mental illness, have you clitoris pierced is elective. Step up PJ and stopped arguing to argue.

You're just getting lazy to avoid calling soccer moms mentally ill mutilators for their nose or chin job. When the surgery is the same the motivation didn't really matter

 

[Vol8188]

Youre confusing sex with gender. Please step outside your comfort zone and read a book

You’re about 20-30 years behind on the ideology here. They no longer claim trans people are females who perform the gender roles of males, or males performing the gender roles of females (the 90s judith Butler version of this).

But rather they pretend the entire dichotomy of male/female is a false one.

 

[hog88]

I agree with Hog. To say all "unnecessary plastic surgeries" is asinine. Let's use for example, reconstructive surgery after breast cancer. Medically that's not necessary but most women do opt for it. These women are not mentally ill.

Leave it to the internet to take these things to an asinine extent...

Oxymoron

 

[82_VOL_83]

You're just getting lazy to avoid calling soccer moms mentally ill mutilators for their nose or chin job. When the surgery is the same the motivation didn't really matter

If the total surgery is the same yes. Soccer mom's don't cut off boobs and add fake peckers. Or have had fake mammaries added because Soccer dad didn't have any to begin with and then cut their pecker off.

 

[Sea Ray]

You're just getting lazy to avoid calling soccer moms mentally ill mutilators for their nose or chin job. When the surgery is the same the motivation didn't really matter

Why make this personal and call another poster here lazy? Some of us see a difference in getting plastic surgery in order to look younger, thinner etc...and getting it to change your sex/gender. That's not one in the same. If you disagree then let's state our cases and agree to disagree. For the record, I disagree that the cases are analogous. That's not to say that some people like Joan Rivers, Priscilla Presley and others get obsessed with their outward appearance to an unhealthy level...but it'd be a stretch to go so far as to label them mentally ill.

Personally I think some of these trans folks are mentally ill but not all of them. From what I've seen, Kaitlyn Jenner, Renee Richards and Chas Bono do not appear to be mentally ill to me, although I do think they're misguided.

You're using an awfully wide brush here that I'm not comfortable with

 

[utvolpj]

Why make this personal and call another poster here lazy? Some of us see a difference in getting plastic surgery in order to look younger, thinner etc...and getting it to change your sex/gender. That's not one in the same.

Explain the difference in a nose/chin job to identify as younger and one to appear more feminine. You only make the distinction to fit your argument

 

[Sea Ray]

Explain the difference in a nose/chin job to identify as younger and one to appear more feminine. You only make the distinction to fit your argument

I've done that but just for you, I'll do it again. It is natural to desire to be more attractive and better looking. There's nothing pathologic about such desires. It is not natural or sensible to want to be the opposite sex, to the point of taking hormones and going through invasive surgeries. Your sex is a fact of life. You cannot change it. Some of these trans folks are denying facts of biology.

Now it's your turn. Explain to me how a breast reconstruction is analogous to getting invasive trans surgeries

 

[Sea Ray]

I've done that but just for you, I'll do it again. It is natural to desire to be more attractive and better looking. There's nothing pathologic about such desires. It is not natural or sensible to want to be the opposite sex, to the point of taking hormones and going through invasive surgeries. Your sex is a fact of life. You cannot change it. Some of these trans folks are denying facts of biology.

...

 

[hog88]

Why make this personal and call another poster here lazy? Some of us see a difference in getting plastic surgery in order to look younger, thinner etc...and getting it to change your sex/gender. That's not one in the same. If you disagree then let's state our cases and agree to disagree. For the record, I disagree that the cases are analogous. That's not to say that some people like Joan Rivers, Priscilla Presley and others get obsessed with their outward appearance to an unhealthy level...but it'd be a stretch to go so far as to label them mentally ill.

Personally I think some of these trans folks are mentally ill but not all of them. From what I've seen, Kaitlyn Jenner, Renee Richards and Chas Bono do not appear to be mentally ill to me, although I do think they're misguided.

You're using an awfully wide brush here that I'm not comfortable with

I disagree with you on the bold. I believe that is a form of mental illness.

 

[utvolpj]

I've done that but just for you, I'll do it again. It is natural to desire to be more attractive and better looking. There's nothing pathologic about such desires. It is not natural or sensible to want to be the opposite sex, to the point of taking hormones and going through invasive surgeries. Your sex is a fact of life. You cannot change it. Some of these trans folks are denying facts of biology.

So is there a single definition for beauty and attractiveness? If not then there is no real difference in their choices

Seems both sets are simply trying to use surgery to identify as something they are not.

 

[hndog609]

Explain the difference in a nose/chin job to identify as younger and one to appear more feminine. You only make the distinction to fit your argument

I ruminated on this for a bit and came up with a bit of a "test". Does the person have X surgery and then insist everyone (to the point of slander) acknowledge a fundamental change in who/what they are?

For instance, let's say Bunny doesn't feel young enough anymore at the pool and goes in for a liposuction. chin and tummy tuck. That's pretty vain but is it mental illness? However this person, who is actually 54, now goes on to insist after surgery they are to be referred to as 35 because in her mind the surgeries didn't just change her appearance but literally changed her chronological age and actively goes about having all her birth records updated from 1969 to 1988. She now IS younger in her mind. Mental illness? I would say so.

 

[Sea Ray]

I disagree with you on the bold. I believe that is a form of mental illness.

OK, fair enough. How 'bout women who want their breasts reconstructed after a mastectomy?. Is that mental illness?

 

[Sea Ray]

I ruminated on this for a bit and came up with a bit of a "test". Does the person have X surgery and then insist everyone (to the point of slander) acknowledge a fundamental change in who/what they are?

For instance, let's say Bunny doesn't feel young enough anymore at the pool and goes in for a liposuction. chin and tummy tuck. That's pretty vain but is it mental illness? However this person, who is actually 54, now goes on to insist after surgery they are to be referred to as 35 because in her mind the surgeries didn't just change her appearance but literally changed her chronological age and actively goes about having all her birth records updated from 1969 to 1988. She now IS younger in her mind. Mental illness? I would say so.

Good point. I like it!

 

[utvolpj]

I ruminated on this for a bit and came up with a bit of a "test". Does the person have X surgery and then insist everyone (to the point of slander) acknowledge a fundamental change in who/what they are?

For instance, let's say Bunny doesn't feel young enough anymore at the pool and goes in for a liposuction. chin and tummy tuck. That's pretty vain but is it mental illness? However this person, who is actually 54, now goes on to insist after surgery they are to be referred to as 35 because in her mind the surgeries didn't just change her appearance but literally changed her chronological age and actively goes about having all her birth records updated from 1969 to 1988. She now IS younger in her mind. Mental illness? I would say so.

They go buy different clothes, use more makeup, go to different clubs, etc. You don't have to change a birth cert to attempt to identify as younger. They'd likely get upset if called out for being too old to do those things.

I've been in IT and dealt with India for years so names and what someone wants to be called are no big deal. You want to be called Sam? Great

 

[Sea Ray]

So is there a single definition for beauty and attractiveness? If not then there is no real difference in their choices

Seems both sets are simply trying to use surgery to identify as something they are not.

I think go off the rails when you used the word "identity". No one's identifying as anything when they get their wrinkles addressed. Nobody is asking you to address them differently. They're not asking for you to let them use your bathroom or play in your sports. They're not asking the Boston Marathon to put them in a different age category due to their surgery. See the difference?

 

[utvolpj]

I think go off the rails when you used the word "identity". No one's identifying as anything when they get their wrinkles addressed. Nobody is asking you to address them differently. They're not asking for you to let them use your bathroom or play in your sports. They're not asking the Boston Marathon to put them in a different age category due to their surgery. See the difference?

Yes a person getting a face lift wants to see themselves as and be viewed as younger. It's an identity thing.

A person having a nose job to see themselves as more feminine wants to change sports classification? You're grabbing at the extremes

 

[hog88]

OK, fair enough. How 'bout women who want their breasts reconstructed after a mastectomy?. Is that mental illness?

No. But there are people addicted to plastic surgery and all addictions are a form of mental problems.

 

[whodeycin85]

I agree with Hog. To say all "unnecessary plastic surgeries" is asinine. Let's use for example, reconstructive surgery after breast cancer. Medically that's not necessary but most women do opt for it. These women are not mentally ill.

Leave it to the internet to take these things to an asinine extent...

I would argue that is medically necessary for mental health of the women whom has a disease....I speaking more to vanity surgeries that many do multiple times to meet some unrealistic expectation they have of themselves in their head..that is a mental illness...

 

[hndog609]

They go buy different clothes, use more makeup, go to different clubs, etc. You don't have to change a birth cert to attempt to identify as younger. They'd likely get upset if called out for being too old to do those things.

I've been in IT and dealt with India for years so names and what someone wants to be called are no big deal. You want to be called Sam? Great

Maybe I could have been clearer on the setup but your reply doesn't actually address my intended point. If we're going to discuss literally anything "mental" in a conversation then things like intent and how one demonstrably perceives oneself matters. I'm not talking about someone that wants to "feel" younger in my 2nd scenario. If a person goes into a surgery (which was the topic I was addressing) so they could come out "feeling" younger is, IMO, a very different animal than someone going into that very same procedure to come out the other side having some phoenix like transformation into quite literally a different entity. (in this example having 19 years come right off their actual age)

 

[Vol8188]

Well it's Ireland and he was jailed for not abiding by a court order. Thar link is nonsense click bait

This my be the most disgustingly statist thing I’ve ever read. Nothing should ever be defended based solely on its legality.

 

[utvolpj]

This my be the most disgustingly statist thing I’ve ever read. Nothing should ever be defended based solely on its legality.

Seriously? He was court ordered to stay away from the school and didn't comply. What do you expect the consequence of that action to be?

If this is a stand you're going to take you'll be super busy in this forum.

 

[Vol8188]

Seriously? He was court ordered to stay away from the school and didn't comply. What do you expect the consequence of that action to be?

If this is a stand you're going to take you'll be super busy in this forum.

The issue is you’re just defending courts for being courts rather than based on the actual merits. Instead of “of course he should go to jail, he violated the court order” the real question we should be asking is “was the court order right/justified”

 

[utvolpj]

The issue is you’re just defending courts for being courts rather than based on the actual merits. Instead of “of course he should go to jail, he violated the court order” the real question we should be asking is “was the court order right/justified”

You can also take issue with people posting articles with absurd headlines. The reason I even pointed out the real reason he was arrested is because there's a bunch who spam the forum with nonsense articles from click bait wingnut blogs.

His employer asked him to leave after he refused to do something he was asked to do. This was him taking a stand and that's his right. However, once removed from employment he was not allowed to go back to the building but admitted to knowingly violating the order and got arrested. So in what land does that go any differently?

 

[Vol8188]

You can also take issue with people posting articles with absurd headlines. The reason I even pointed out the real reason he was arrested is because there's a bunch who spam the forum with nonsense articles from click bait wingnut blogs.

His employer asked him to leave after he refused to do something he was asked to do. This was him taking a stand and that's his right. However, once removed from employment he was not allowed to go back to the building but admitted to knowingly violating the order and got arrested. So in what land does that go any differently?

I don’t engage in the click bait articles and rarely comment on them unless there is something atrocious in them. Some of the articles are accurately reporting terrible things, others are just trash.

The second paragraph I have no problem with and agree with you. But that’s for an entirely different reason than “because the court said so”.