The Numbers Thread

[LA Vol]

Hubbs said we won't blueshirt any players this year, including Zach Stewart. Since he never enrolled in classes and withdrew before camp, he will be a counter against 2016, assuming he actually joins the team. It's a little surprising that we're holding a spot for him when we're steering away other players we were planning to take and we're not even sure Stewart is going to enroll.

 

[CrunchingTheVolz]

Hubbs said we won't blueshirt any players this year, including Zach Stewart. Since he never enrolled in classes and withdrew before camp, he will be a counter against 2016, assuming he actually joins the team. It's a little surprising that we're holding a spot for him when we're steering away other players we were planning to take and we're not even sure Stewart is going to enroll.

Maybe they are sure he is ready to enroll.

 

[LA Vol]

Maybe they are sure he is ready to enroll.

How can they be sure? He told them he was going to enroll in January and didn't. He's been through a lot, and he's been out of football for a year. Spots are at a premium, and we're turning players away and slow playing 4*s, so I just find the situation a bit surprising.

 

[buffaloblue]

I still think we sign 22 including Stewart.

 

[Tuckervol1003]

How can they be sure? He told them he was going to enroll in January and didn't. He's been through a lot, and he's been out of football for a year. Spots are at a premium, and we're turning players away and slow playing 4*s, so I just find the situation a bit surprising.

I think it is a little more simple than what some are thinking. I think the staff has a pretty good idea of who they have a shot at signing and they have determined which positions are most critical to the future of the program.

I will be very surprised if there are any commitments towards the 2016 class this week. We will sign 20 on February 3rd and any blue shirts will be taken after NSD and only if there is a great desire by a particular coach to get the guy on the team. IT appears that there is a great desire to make sure there are 25 scholarships available for the 2017 class.

 

[Vol Main]

If the number is 22 and there are 17 commits, then why are peeps saying we can only add 3 more? 22 - 17 = 5

 

[Wickman]

If the number is 22 and there are 17 commits, then why are peeps saying we can only add 3 more? 22 - 17 = 5

Stewart
Young (BS from last year)

 

[RockyTopInBham]

One thing on the BS/GS discussion-

I know Fort, Hubbs, and Co. have continually said there will be no blueshirts in this class, as they're trying to keep as much space for '17 as possible, but we've also heard throughout the Hart situation that he wasn't getting his offer pulled- he was offered a blueshirt. Either the staff knew he would never accept a blueshirt and offered it to him so he would leave, or this staff really does wanna fit as much elite talent in this class, regardless of the anti-BS/GS rhetoric put on by VQ and company. I know there are guys saying we have 3 spots remaining, but I can't fathom a situation where Kongbo, Dickerson, Brown, Byrd, & Warrior all want in, and we say no to 2 of those. Again, much of this has been stated by others on this board, I guess I'm just starting to lean towards the "do whatever you can to get them all" crew. JMO, GBO.

 

[CrunchingTheVolz]

One thing on the BS/GS discussion-

I know Fort, Hubbs, and Co. have continually said there will be no blueshirts in this class, as they're trying to keep as much space for '17 as possible, but we've also heard throughout the Hart situation that he wasn't getting his offer pulled- he was offered a blueshirt. Either the staff knew he would never accept a blueshirt and offered it to him so he would leave, or this staff really does wanna fit as much elite talent in this class, regardless of the anti-BS/GS rhetoric put on by VQ and company. I know there are guys saying we have 3 spots remaining, but I can't fathom a situation where Kongbo, Dickerson, Brown, Byrd, & Warrior all want in, and we say no to 2 of those. Again, much of this has been stated by others on this board, I guess I'm just starting to lean towards the "do whatever you can to get them all" crew. JMO, GBO.

One way or another that blue shirt would have never played out for Hart. He knew that. IF it was even offered that day.

 

[Volnukem]

One thing on the BS/GS discussion-

I know Fort, Hubbs, and Co. have continually said there will be no blueshirts in this class, as they're trying to keep as much space for '17 as possible, but we've also heard throughout the Hart situation that he wasn't getting his offer pulled- he was offered a blueshirt. Either the staff knew he would never accept a blueshirt and offered it to him so he would leave, or this staff really does wanna fit as much elite talent in this class, regardless of the anti-BS/GS rhetoric put on by VQ and company. I know there are guys saying we have 3 spots remaining, but I can't fathom a situation where Kongbo, Dickerson, Brown, Byrd, & Warrior all want in, and we say no to 2 of those. Again, much of this has been stated by others on this board, I guess I'm just starting to lean towards the "do whatever you can to get them all" crew. JMO, GBO.

Excellent post. I will add that next year we have 11-12 graduating seniors along with a handful of potential early draft guys (Hurd, Kamara, Barnett, etc.). However, in order to clear space to sign a full 25 commits next year we will need at least 13-14 guys transfer, graduate early, or enter the draft. While that is plausible, I imagine we can afford to count 1-2 of the '16 class against the 17' class because the 85 limit will be the issue, not the 25 limit.

 

[LA Vol]

One thing on the BS/GS discussion-

I know Fort, Hubbs, and Co. have continually said there will be no blueshirts in this class, as they're trying to keep as much space for '17 as possible, but we've also heard throughout the Hart situation that he wasn't getting his offer pulled- he was offered a blueshirt. Either the staff knew he would never accept a blueshirt and offered it to him so he would leave, or this staff really does wanna fit as much elite talent in this class, regardless of the anti-BS/GS rhetoric put on by VQ and company. I know there are guys saying we have 3 spots remaining, but I can't fathom a situation where Kongbo, Dickerson, Brown, Byrd, & Warrior all want in, and we say no to 2 of those. Again, much of this has been stated by others on this board, I guess I'm just starting to lean towards the "do whatever you can to get them all" crew. JMO, GBO.

That's what I'm thinking, too. IMO, we'll take all the players on our hot list-- Warrior, Brown, Byrd, Kongbo and Dickerson-- if we can get them and make the numbers work. Seems to me Bailey could be a take, as well, especially if we only end up with 3 of the top 5. I know 20 is the latest #, but I wonder if we won't end up with 21, plus Stewart, if he does enroll in summer.

It makes sense that the coaches hoped Hart would leave. He appeared to be on the bubble with Marshall and seemed disgruntled then. When he didn't go, the coaches offered the blueshirt. If HubbsCo is right, Hart was the only commit eligible for a blueshirt. Can't imagine any of the 5-6 recruits we're still pursuing would consider a BS/GS, so I can see where those are off the table.

 

[BondJamesBond]

It's been a long thread, and I haven't read it all, but the coaches may be aware of guys who may sign but won't qualify and will be placed at a JUCO. Those ultimately do not count against the class or team numbers. I have no idea if that is the case, but it has happened in practically every class since the 1990s.

 

[CrunchingTheVolz]

It's been a long thread, and I haven't read it all, but the coaches may be aware of guys who may sign but won't qualify and will be placed at a JUCO. Those ultimately do not count against the class or team numbers. I have no idea if that is the case, but it has happened in practically every class since the 1990s.

Butch won't be having anyone sign if there is any question of them qualifying. That changed not long ago.

 

[Volnukem]

This may need to be it's own thread, but I'm gonna copy paste some of the recruiting guidelines over from the bylaws for reference. Since Initial Counters (i.e. 25 limit) is usually the point of contention I will focus on that (Bylaw 15.5.6.3.1). Also, initial counters are only for athletes who have received financial aid for the first time. Therefore, graduate transfers don't count as initial counters.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D116OCT.pdf

Definitions

15.02.3 Counter. A “counter” is an individual who is receiving institutional financial aid that is countable against the aid limitations in a sport.

15.02.3.1 Initial Counter. [FBS/FCS] An “initial counter” is a counter who is receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time. (See Bylaw 15.5.6.3 in football for instances in which the institution is permittedto defer the counting of such financial aid until the following academic year.)

Typical Scholarship

15.5.6.3.1
Recruited Student-Athlete Entering in Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS]
A student-athlete recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters in the fall term and receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) during the first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that year in football. Therefore, such aid shall not be awarded if the institution has reached its limit on the number of initial counters prior to the award of institutional financial aid to the student-athlete.

Grey Shirt (I think)

15.5.6.3.2
Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS]
A student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received.
(Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

Recruit pays for first Fall Term

15.5.6.3.3
Recruited Student-Athlete, Aid Received After First Year. [FBS/FCS]
A recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) (including a student-athlete who was not a qualifier) who first receives athletically related financial aid after the student-athlete’s first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that academic year in which the aid is first received, if such aid is received during the fall term. However, such a student-athlete who first receives athletically related financial aid in the second or third term of an academic year may be considered an initial counter during the academic year in which aid was first received or the next academic year. In either case, the student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received.
(Revised: 1/3/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11).

Blue Shirt

15.5.6.3.4
Nonrecruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid. [FBS/FCS]
A student-athlete not recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the institution who receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) after beginning football practice becomes a counter but need not be counted as an initial counter until the next academic year if the institution has reached its initial limit for the year in question. However, the student-athlete shall be considered in the total counter limit for the academic year in which the aid was first received.
(Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

Early Enrollee

5.5.6.3.5
Midyear Replacement. [FBS/FCS]
A counter who graduates at midyear or who graduates during the previous academic year (including summer) may be replaced by an initial counter, who shall be counted against the initial limit either for the year in which the aid is awarded (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or for the following academic year, or by a student-athlete who was an initial counter in a previous academic year and is returning to the institution after time spent on active duty in the armed services or on an official religious mission. In bowl subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year to the maximum number of overall counters (85 total counters). In championship subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year that equals the maximum number of overall equivalencies or overall counters.
(Revised: 4/20/99 effective 8/1/99, 6/8/99, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 8/2/05, 12/15/06, 1/14/08 effective 8/1/08, 4/2/10, 1/15/11)

Preferred Walk-On

15.5.6.3.6
Aid First Awarded After Second Year. [FBS/FCS]
A student-athlete who has been in residence at the certifying institution for at least two academic years may receive athletically related financial aid for the first time without such aid counting as an initial award, provided the aid falls within the overall grant limitation.
(Adopted: 1/11/89, Revised: 1/10/90 effective 8/1/90)

Academic Scholarship Exception

15.5.6.3.7
Recruited Student-Athlete, Varsity Competition. [FBS/FCS]
In accordance with Bylaw 15.5.1.1, a recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) receiving institutional financial aid having been granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability becomes an initial counter in the first academic year in which the student-athlete competes on the varsity level. (See Bylaw 15.5.1.1.1.)
(Revised: 10/27/05 effective 8/1/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11, 1/18/14 effective 8/1/14

 

[LA Vol]

.

 

[Volnukem]

See bolded. It's only the first time they receive financial aid.

15.02.3 Counter. A “counter” is an individual who is receiving institutional financial aid that is countableagainst the aid limitations in a sport.
15.02.3.1 Initial Counter. [FBS/FCS] An “initial counter” is a counter who is receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time. (See Bylaw 15.5.6.3 in football for instances in which the institution is permittedto defer the counting of such financial aid until the following academic year.)

 

[UTMVol76]

This may need to be it's own thread, but I'm gonna copy paste some of the recruiting guidelines over from the bylaws for reference. Since Initial Counters (i.e. 25 limit) is usually the point of contention I will focus on that (Bylaw 15.5.6.3.1). Also, initial counters are only for athletes who have received financial aid for the first time. Therefore, graduate transfers don't count as initial counters.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D116OCT.pdf

Typical Scholarship
Grey Shirt (I think)
Recruit pays for first Fall Term
Blue Shirt
Early Enrollee
Preferred Walk-On
Academic Scholarship Exception

Good info (if interested), but my reaction upon seeing post:

:sick:


This is why daddy Butch makes the big bucks, I let him doo the worrying, I just enjoy the show.

opcorn:

 

[Volnukem]

Good info (if interested), but my reaction upon seeing post:

:sick:


This is why daddy Butch makes the big bucks, I let him doo the worrying, I just enjoy the show.

opcorn:

There is reason why there are several people dedicated to figuring all of this out.

 

[LA Vol]

See bolded. It's only the first time they receive financial aid.

According to UTAD, RDAIV is an initial counter at UT. He was a graduate transfer. So... he wasn't on scholarship at Cincy?

 

[UTMVol76]

There is reason why there are several people dedicated to figuring all of this out.

They're called Lawyers.

 

[Volnukem]

According to UTAD, RDAIV is an initial counter at UT. He was a graduate transfer. So... he wasn't on scholarship at Cincy?

Hmmm... From the wording, it seems like he would only be a counter and not an initial counter, but who knows when it comes to these things. When did the UTAD say he was an initial counter? I am not trying to pretend that I know the ins and outs. I just wanted to post the actual rules. The RDA thing was my interpretation, but if they say so, then I stand corrected.

 

[Volnukem]

They're called Lawyers.

I was referring to the whole Compliance office, but close enough.

 

[LA Vol]

Hmmm... From the wording, it seems like he would only be a counter and not an initial counter, but who knows when it comes to these things. When did the UTAD say he was an initial counter? I am not trying to pretend that I know the ins and outs. I just wanted to post the actual rules. The RDA thing was my interpretation, but if they say so, then I stand corrected.

I'm not sure, either-- I'm just curious. Hubbs, LWS and others have said UT is counting RDAIV as an initial counter. Hubbs discussed it, along with the blueshirt situation. An agent/attorney told me that every scholarship player comes in as both an initial counter and a total counter, but that seems to conflict with the info you posted. (I deleted that post above, because I don't want to create more confusion if it's not accurate). It all seems unnecessarily complicated, but I'd like to know the answer. Thanks for posting the rules! It's good to see it in black and white.

 

[UTMVol76]

I was referring to the whole Compliance office, but close enough.

Lol, I know. Obvious though you'd need a flock of lawyers to make heads or tails of their stinking bylaws. Yet another reason to hate the NCAA.

 

[JohnD13]

If you are trying to crunch the numbers assuming we get Brown, Daniels or Dickerson you may be crunching numbers for no reason. I hope I'm wrong and then all the number crunching to see how we meet the number will be worthwhile.