The Minimum Wage: What's the Big Deal?

[JC61]

As Americans, I believe we have bastardized the higher educations systems and made everyone feel they must attend a university to be successful. I'm a proponent of trade schools and community colleges (if they're still called that). Everyone isn't cut out to be a manager. We need plenty of folks w/ other skills (mechanics, welders, electricians, etc.) who make a pretty good middle income living. We also need to bring our manufacturing base back, which provides more opportunity to gain skills that would promote a stronger middle class.

Like I wrote earlier, if you want to make a better living, develop a better/more marketable skill and you'll have an opportunity to earn more pay.

 

[luthervol]

This will be good.



That's a mighty huge brush you're painting with. A;ll, huh? Do you read the Bible?

Jesus said that every action for the christian should be defined by love for God and others. As a matter of fact, He said that the entirety of the law is upheld by these two things, both of which is love, which He defined and exemplified as a series of personal decisions.

His closest disciple (John) wrote in his first epistle that we love because He (Jesus) first loved us.


In other words, our every decision is to be based in love, and the basis of the decisions is the love that Jesus gave us by dying for us.

Again... In other words, our every decision is expressly NOT an escape from eternal punishment, nor an effort to gain credit in eternity since jesus' love has already liberated us from punishment and given us all grace and mercy. It's just a response to Jesus' example and decisions of love toward us.


So.. Once again you are wrong.



Actually, you are wrong.

First, the tithe is not taught for the church in the NT. Christian love giving is. The Bible says literally and explicitly in 2 Corinthians 9:7 that the Christian should only give if they want to, and shouldn't give out of compulsion (being forced or coerced). That they should give out of love, and that if they aren't happy about what they give, they shouldn't give at all. Period.

This completely invalidates your comparison. Completely.

Further, I'll explain this as a pastor that has to wade these waters you think you know about.

If a person wants to give to a specific budgetary line item (missions, etc...) they can list it on their donation or check, and we as the church are required to apply it toward that budgetary item. If they list something that we don't have as a budgeted item (i.e. we will not be spending on that), then we approach them and tell them so, returning the check/money.



That share holder has a choice as to whether to continue to own that share of company. It's not their money. They just own a share. They signed up for that agreement when they bought into the company.



A person in my neighborhood threatened to stop paying property taxes until the county repaired some roads. The response was that he is free to do so. After two years, the police will show up, forcibly evict him, take his home, and sell it at auction.

There is nothing at all lazy about my thinking. Just your ability to reason.

I do believe in some limited taxation. Basically I believe in enough taxation to pay for common infrastructure. That is a far cry from your ideal of redistribution of wealth. It's just us corporately paying for what we use as a society.

As to your next questions, I'm not the one that said:



While also promoting redistribution of wealth.

Redistribution of wealth is wanting what someone else has and acting on that desire. It is LITERALLY the definition of greed acted upon.

You claim that greed is not a proper motivator, but it's the primary motivator for your ideal.

You claim that greed is not a trait that should be encouraged, but you encourage it with your ideal.

You claim that greed is not a trait that should be rewarded, but you encourage rewarding it through your ideal.

It's indisputable to any rational person. You are a hypocrite and tour own words self-incriminated. Stop fighting it. Just admit it, or soften your ill-conceived post above.

I don't care which, actually.

the one advantage you have over me is time on your hands.

So you believe in some forcible seizure, just not a lot.

Reward and punishment are embedded in all world religions for a reason.

You don't have to invest in a company, nor do you have to live in a particular country. (free will)

The church will spend money as they see best (whoever is in the elected position to make those decisions) They may tell you that your money will be used somewhere else, but it's sort of a shell game.

I'm temporarily out of time.

 

[LouderVol]

Yes i am aware of what dictates income for an individual in this country. I brought this up because many people believe that a redistribution of wealth is morally wrong because the poor do not deserve the wealth from the rich because the rich "work harder", and I wanted to show that' it was a flawed argument.

its not just harder. its the consequences and weight of their action. burger flipper messes up, someone gets the wrong order. manager messes up the whole shop could be shut down.

 

[n_huffhines]

As Americans, I believe we have bastardized the higher educations systems and made everyone feel they must attend a university to be successful. I'm a proponent of trade schools and community colleges (if they're still called that). Everyone isn't cut out to be a manager. We need plenty of folks w/ other skills (mechanics, welders, electricians, etc.) who make a pretty good middle income living. We also need to bring our manufacturing base back, which provides more opportunity to gain skills that would promote a stronger middle class.

Like I wrote earlier, if you want to make a better living, develop a better/more marketable skill and you'll have an opportunity to earn more pay.

We've distorted the market which means not only is higher education more expensive than it should be, but we have more degrees* than the market can support. Millennials were told their whole lives that they needed a degree...now a lot of them have useless degrees and a mountain of debt.

*or perhaps a better way to phrase it is "more of certain types of degrees than the market can support"

 

[1972 Grad]

Where would you be without your yahoos,they're a dime a dozen huh.

Spoken like a true yahoo.

 

[JC61]

We've distorted the market which means not only is higher education more expensive than it should be, but we have more degrees* than the market can support. Millennials were told their whole lives that they needed a degree...now a lot of them have useless degrees and a mountain of debt.

*or perhaps a better way to phrase it is "more of certain types of degrees than the market can support"

most certainly. a good mechanic (other skilled folks) can earn much more, more quickly than the average college grad. It levels off eventually...but if they're a go getter, eventually they'll become a foreman or even start running a shop.

 

[Orange_Crush]

the one advantage you have over me is time on your hands.

Perhaps. So, are you saying that given enough time you'd make a rationally valid argument? because as of yet, you haven't.

So you believe in some forcible seizure, just not a lot.

Of course. I never claimed that I don't. I just pointed out a great difference between forcible seizure and freely given personal charity.

Also, there is a difference between taxation and distribution of wealth (infrastructure/entitlements). It's a subtlety you seem unable or unwilling to grasp.

Reward and punishment are embedded in all world religions for a reason.

I just gave insight to this. You are acting extremely dense right now. You come across much like a kid with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears, Seriously.

You don't have to invest in a company, nor do you have to live in a particular country. (free will)

This is true. That has nothing to do with the connection between greed, envy, coveting and redistribution of wealth.

Since I didn't make the blanket statements about greed and envy while promoting redistribution of wealth, it's not a problem for me to traverse.

The church will spend money as they see best (whoever is in the elected position to make those decisions) They may tell you that your money will be used somewhere else, but it's sort of a shell game.

As I pastor, I just told you how it works. I'll repeat myself.

You are acting extremely dense right now. You come across much like a kid with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears, Seriously.

I'm temporarily out of time.

How convenient.

 

[luthervol]

Perhaps. So, are you saying that given enough time you'd make a rationally valid argument? because as of yet, you haven't.



Of course. I never claimed that I don't. I just pointed out a great difference between forcible seizure and freely given personal charity.

Also, there is a difference between taxation and distribution of wealth (infrastructure/entitlements). It's a subtlety you seem unable or unwilling to grasp.



I just gave insight to this. You are acting extremely dense right now. You come across much like a kid with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears, Seriously.



This is true. That has nothing to do with the connection between greed, envy, coveting and redistribution of wealth.

Since I didn't make the blanket statements about greed and envy while promoting redistribution of wealth, it's not a problem for me to traverse.



As I pastor, I just told you how it works. I'll repeat myself.

You are acting extremely dense right now. You come across much like a kid with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears, Seriously.



How convenient.

So is there an element of reward and punishment embedded in all religions?

Sam gives $500 to the church and says "I do not wish for any of my money to go toward a pay raise for the youth minister." The church says sure, gives the youth minister a pay raise, and uses Sam's $500 for something else. Got you.

Unemployment, Social Security, Medicare, disaster relief, public education, prisons, courts, border security, homeland security, CIA, FBI, federal parks, food and drug inspectors, military, infrastructure, fire protection, police protection.... which of these do you believe appropriate to forcibly seize money to fund? And what do you say to people that have a different list?

 

[n_huffhines]

So is there an element of reward and punishment embedded in all religions?

Sam gives $500 to the church and says "I do not wish for any of my money to go toward a pay raise for the youth minister." The church says sure, gives the youth minister a pay raise, and uses Sam's $500 for something else. Got you.

Unemployment, Social Security, Medicare, disaster relief, public education, prisons, courts, border security, homeland security, CIA, FBI, federal parks, food and drug inspectors, military, infrastructure, fire protection, police protection.... which of these do you believe appropriate to forcibly seize money to fund? And what do you say to people that have a different list?

Honestly, I wouldn't mind having government only operate off voluntary funds. If you give people 35% of their money back, they will donate to a fire department. People donate to much more frivolous causes and that's with 35% of their money missing. Yeah we won't be able to afford a bloated FDA, but that's a good thing. The FDA needs to be scaled way back anyway.

The power to forcibly tax ensures government becomes too big.

 

[Orange_Crush]

So is there an element of reward and punishment embedded in all religions?

I covered that. Your assertion was not about "an element". It was claiming that Christian giving is analogous to forcible taxation. I showed that the element of reward/punishment in Christianity is a misnomer as you tried to use it. Also, I've shown that your claim of analogy between Christian giving and forcible taxation is an idiotic comparison.

Please stop trying to drag the point further away from your comments per greed and envy. You're blatantly trying to deflect from the points of the discussion. Before the end of this post, I'll give you a very simple reminder--again--what the point is.

Sam gives $500 to the church and says "I do not wish for any of my money to go toward a pay raise for the youth minister." The church says sure, gives the youth minister a pay raise, and uses Sam's $500 for something else. Got you.

You're still trying to divert from the point.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

For crying out loud, Luther. What about ["as you decide", "only if you want to", "not forced or coerced", and "only what you can happily give"] is comparable to [forced taxation]?

Unemployment, Social Security, Medicare, disaster relief, public education, prisons, courts, border security, homeland security, CIA, FBI, federal parks, food and drug inspectors, military, infrastructure, fire protection, police protection.... which of these do you believe appropriate to forcibly seize money to fund? And what do you say to people that have a different list?

I never argued against taxes. I never even argued against greed. This is just more diversion on your part because you want this discussion to become about me. It's not. It's about you, your words, and your ideals.

As promised, I will make this extremely simple.

Did you, or did you not, say:

[The argument that greed exists is] also like complaining that racism, hatred, lust, envy, murder, rape, brutality, bigotry, and murder exists. Just because something exists, doesn't mean it should be viewed as good or even normal. I've always hated that argument for greed. Greed is not a proper motivator or a trait that should be encouraged and rewarded....but it is.

You listed envy as bad. You listed greed as bad, and an improper motivator that should not be rewarded.

So, envy and greed are to want what someone else has.

Wealth redistribution is to want what the "haves" have, take it, and redistribute it. It is the ideal of rewarding envy and greed.

That, again, is the simplicity of it. And since it's your post per greed and envy, compared to your ideal of envy and greed rewarded, it's your problem to work out.

Try all you want to rationalize it via flawed descriptions of Christian charity, how our church handles budget items and donations, or how I feel about taxation.

Those were your words, and it's your ideal. You're the hypocrite. Just own it and stop trying to deflect to others.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Rock solid post. Again. Fast becoming one of the best posters here.

My wife has 2 part time Jobs but is quick to tell pepole that her career is a homemaker. Takes great pride in it. Laughs at feminists. She is 33 and a dying breed...young women today can't cook, sew,or take care of a home. I tell my teenage son all the time that he is going to have a really hard time finding a real woman. I work 60 hours a week most weeks. I don't wash clothes. I don't cook. I don't go to the grocery store. Ever. I don't need to... I have a real woman. I wash dishes frequently, because I want to and I love my wife. I vacuum..because it's a power tool and I enjoy it. Some would call me a sexist pig...my wife thinks I am a real man. That's all that matters. Because of my hard work she is class mom at school. Goes on every field trip. Handles every class party. Takes my kids to and from school. If she worked full time, we would have more money. It's simply better for my kids and my home that she doesnt. So we don't drive braND new vehicles. We don't wear designer clothes, or take lavish vacations. Those things aren't important to us. My kids are. Unless my son needs help, my kids homework is done by the time I get home from work, because mom is there to make sure of it.
Some would say we live a backwards lifestyle, not keeping up with the times. I think a young man today that settles for a career woman who can't cook, clean, properly run a home is making a big mistake. Money isn't all that matters. FwIw both my kids are straight A students and neither has ever been in any trouble outside our home. I don't think that is a coincidence. I think it's an expected result of a conscious effort.

Good for you. Mean that sincerely, but it isn't for everyone. You can raise kids and work. I view that is a decision for the parents to make. It works for you, but a career minded woman certainly isn't a deal breaker for me. I enjoy working. I don't mind splitting household chores. I like to cook and I am pretty damn good at it. I would like to see us get back to a point where one income can support a family of four.

BTW, my daughter gets straight As and stays trouble free. It's not about staying home. It's about expectations and staying involved. Even when I was married, I was on the PTA. I did it for two reasons, one I can have a direct effect on the quality of education my daughter receives and two, because it makes me accessible. I know all the teachers and administrators. I don't go on all the field trips because I am not real fond of a bunch of screaming kids crammed in a bus, but if my daughter is performing, I have never missed anything, save her 2nd grade Thanksgiving pageant which I missed due to a jury trial. She still hasn't let me live it down.

 

[Orange_Crush]

... I have never missed anything, save her 2nd grade Thanksgiving pageant which I missed due to a jury trial.

You are a horrible person and have no right to call yourself a "dad".












































 

[luthervol]

I covered that. Your assertion was not about "an element". It was claiming that Christian giving is analogous to forcible taxation. I showed that the element of reward/punishment in Christianity is a misnomer as you tried to use it. Also, I've shown that your claim of analogy between Christian giving and forcible taxation is an idiotic comparison.

Please stop trying to drag the point further away from your comments per greed and envy. You're blatantly trying to deflect from the points of the discussion. Before the end of this post, I'll give you a very simple reminder--again--what the point is.



You're still trying to divert from the point.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

For crying out loud, Luther. What about ["as you decide", "only if you want to", "not forced or coerced", and "only what you can happily give"] is comparable to [forced taxation]?



I never argued against taxes. I never even argued against greed. This is just more diversion on your part because you want this discussion to become about me. It's not. It's about you, your words, and your ideals.

As promised, I will make this extremely simple.

Did you, or did you not, say:



You listed envy as bad. You listed greed as bad, and an improper motivator that should not be rewarded.

So, envy and greed are to want what someone else has.

Wealth redistribution is to want what the "haves" have, take it, and redistribute it. It is the ideal of rewarding envy and greed.

That, again, is the simplicity of it. And since it's your post per greed and envy, compared to your ideal of envy and greed rewarded, it's your problem to work out.

Try all you want to rationalize it via flawed descriptions of Christian charity, how our church handles budget items and donations, or how I feel about taxation.

Those were your words, and it's your ideal. You're the hypocrite. Just own it and stop trying to deflect to others.

You have a tendency to overestimate yourself and the strength and validity of your arguments.

I'll stand by my statements....you stand by yours.

If it's envy and greed to say "we have more than enough food, I think we should give some to those people over there that are starving," then we are using different definitions.

Don't underestimate the power of punishment and reward with regards to religion.

 

[Orange_Crush]

If it's envy and greed to say "we have more than enough food, I think we should give some to those people over there that are starving," then we are using different definitions. .

It's quite pitiable to see a bad argument validated as horrible via equivocation.

 

[05_never_again]

Sam gives $500 to the church and says "I do not wish for any of my money to go toward a pay raise for the youth minister." The church says sure, gives the youth minister a pay raise, and uses Sam's $500 for something else. Got you.

That is voluntary.

Taxation is not.

What is so hard to understand about this?

 

[PKT_VOL]

Rock solid post. Again. Fast becoming one of the best posters here.

My wife has 2 part time Jobs but is quick to tell pepole that her career is a homemaker. Takes great pride in it. Laughs at feminists. She is 33 and a dying breed...young women today can't cook, sew,or take care of a home. I tell my teenage son all the time that he is going to have a really hard time finding a real woman. I work 60 hours a week most weeks. I don't wash clothes. I don't cook. I don't go to the grocery store. Ever. I don't need to... I have a real woman. I wash dishes frequently, because I want to and I love my wife. I vacuum..because it's a power tool and I enjoy it. Some would call me a sexist pig...my wife thinks I am a real man. That's all that matters. Because of my hard work she is class mom at school. Goes on every field trip. Handles every class party. Takes my kids to and from school. If she worked full time, we would have more money. It's simply better for my kids and my home that she doesnt. So we don't drive braND new vehicles. We don't wear designer clothes, or take lavish vacations. Those things aren't important to us. My kids are. Unless my son needs help, my kids homework is done by the time I get home from work, because mom is there to make sure of it.
Some would say we live a backwards lifestyle, not keeping up with the times. I think a young man today that settles for a career woman who can't cook, clean, properly run a home is making a big mistake. Money isn't all that matters. FwIw both my kids are straight A students and neither has ever been in any trouble outside our home. I don't think that is a coincidence. I think it's an expected result of a conscious effort.

And what about a woman who has a career, cooks, cleans, and sews?

 

[PKT_VOL]

Does this thread have a working definition of greed verus self-interest?

 

[hog88]

And what about a woman who has a career, cooks, cleans, and sews?

She's Asian.

 

[n_huffhines]

Does this thread have a working definition of greed verus self-interest?

I don't really distinguish the 2. I am more results oriented. Motives are less of a concern. Yeah the free market allows guys like M Milken to greedily and irresponsibly over-promise investors a certain ROI, but his junk bonds did much more good than harm. IDC how much money he lost investors, it doesn't outweigh the economic benefit of MCI, CNN, etc. which he found funding for.

Even the bad guys can accidentally do awesome things.

 

[Carl Pickens]

WTF? This makes no sense. If it's not force, then what is it?

In his eyes it must be love

 

[PKT_VOL]

She's Asian.

Disqualification, eh?

 

[PKT_VOL]

I don't really distinguish the 2. I am more results oriented. Motives are less of a concern. Yeah the free market allows guys like M Milken to greedily and irresponsibly over-promise investors a certain ROI, but his junk bonds did much more good than harm. IDC how much money he lost investors, it doesn't outweigh the economic benefit of MCI, CNN, etc. which he found funding for.

Even the bad guys can accidentally do awesome things.

If there isn't a clear differentiation between the two, the whole discussion becomes vapid.

 

[hog88]

Disqualification, eh?

The only women I know that can hold a career, cook, clean AND sew are Asian. Mine can only do 3 out of the 4, she can't sew worth a ****.

 

[luthervol]

Does this thread have a working definition of greed verus self-interest?

When you're at the end of the buffet line at a wedding reception with four people behind you and you notice there are only 10 chicken strips left. Greed is taking 3 or more. Self-interest is taking two.

 

[hog88]

When you're at the end of the buffet line at a wedding reception with four people behind you and you notice there are only 10 chicken strips left. Greed is taking 3 or more. Self-interest is taking two.

What if your a big fella who just paid for the damn wedding?