The Minimum Wage: What's the Big Deal?

#201
#201
SamRebel35 said:
I don't know if this point has been made yet. I've only read the first page.

Minimum wages are a great idea to ensure that people aren't being taken advantage of. The problem, however, is that in a free market, a prospective employee has an economic value associated with their skill/potential to provide value to a given employer. In some instances, a prospective employee might only have the ability to add $5 of value per hour for his employer. The employer will not hire a low skilled worker at a loss (if minimum wage is $15 per hour, that's $10 lost per hour. Would you hire this person under such circumstances?). Effectively, our hypothetical low skilled worker has been locked out of the market. The barrier in his way being the minimum wage. This person will not be able to join the work force, thus, they will not be able to gain experience and increase their market value. Thus, their economic mobility is arrested in place. If you are in favor of higher minimum wage, you are also in favor of limited economic mobility and greater unemployment. That's the kind of outcome you get when you try to dilute the free market with socialist ideologies. It does not work. Minimum wage sounds good, but it is not compatible with a free market.
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Agree. Also agree with 79s point about automation ('cept for the Skynet part)

I don't have a problem with a MW. I do have a problem with the "living wage" rhetoric that is ill-defined and ignores the problems associated with it; treating it as "we'll just take the money from those rich SOBs and everything will be fine"
 
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#202
#202
volinbham said:
Agree. Also agree with 79s point about automation ('cept for the Skynet part)

I don't have a problem with a MW. I do have a problem with the "living wage" rhetoric that is ill-defined and ignores the problems associated with it; treating it as "we'll just take the money from those rich SOBs and everything will be fine"
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I deal with automation for my job and thats my running joke..Skynet is coming! People unfamiliar with Terminator usually don't get the joke.
 
#203
#203
BeecherVol said:
The "happy medium" is, if they feel like Im not paying them what they feel is right they move on. Ive done it myself.
If I lose good employees to competitors because of my compensation/benefits my business will suffer and force me to adjust. If not, I could run the risk of going under.

Who should get to decide what a CEO should make for any company? Who gets to define what "gluttonous greed" is?
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On the last point, we have a real chicken and egg situation with ever increasing safety net spending. The more programs are available and the higher the threshold for qualifying (200, 300x poverty guidelines) the more it makes sense to let the government pay for it.

We also incentivize someone to make less to keep the government gravy train coming.
 
#205
#205
FLVOL_79 said:
At the end of the day everyone wants to see everyone doing well. We would all like to make good money and have decent things in life. I doubt you'll find anyone who thinks otherwise. However that is not how the real world works. People wracked with empathy might have trouble coming to terms with the fact that we don't live in a perfect world and sh!t happens. Minimum wage helps to set a threshold that employers can't go under and that is a good thing. Employers pay you at what your value is to the company. If you're making minimum wage that means your value is disposable because you have an unskilled job.

It's the employees responsibility to assess their skills and future goals. When the pro sports / rapper / famous actress / well paid artist career paths don't pan out it seems that people do not or never had any sort of back up plan. They are suffering from the "Chase your dreams" mentality that sets most people up for failure.

Outside of adjusting for inflation raising minimum wage is going to do a few things. First it will increase costs. Costs will have to either be absorbed by the company (lol right) or passed on to the consumer in the form of higher priced goods (more likely). Price of goods go up and business will drop, maybe not by much but it's going to take a hit. $12 for a Big Mac anyone? The other big thing, and maybe more important one is that employers will expect employees to do with less. Less could be less employees, less equipment, etc, etc. Thirdly it will drive companies to become serious about automation which will eventually lead to Skynet and the end of the world.
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See that's what I'm getting at FLVOL. In too many cases, the ratio between what regular employees make and what corparate CEO's, VP's, etc make is too disproportionate. God forbid a CEO only take home 20 million a year instead of 35 so his or her employees can have benefits or a decent hourly wage. It woudln't affect his or her way of life in the slightest. They already have a life of lavish abundance as it is.

instead of looking at the worst try looking at one of the better, COSTCO.
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Agreed 100%. They are a beacon example of what the symbiot relationship between a company and it's employees should be.
 
#206
#206
volinbham said:
On the last point, we have a real chicken and egg situation with ever increasing safety net spending. The more programs are available and the higher the threshold for qualifying (200, 300x poverty guidelines) the more it makes sense to let the government pay for it.

We also incentivize someone to make less to keep the government gravy train coming.
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That is an angle most don't consider. And with those programs come the ability push voting buttons. Its not like they are just gonna vanish with a higher MW.
 
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#207
#207
Brave Volunteer said:
See that's what I'm getting at FLVOL. In too many cases, the ratio between what regular employees make and what corparate CEO's, VP's, etc make is too disproportionate. God forbid a CEO only take home 20 million a year instead of 35 so his or her employees can have benefits or a decent hourly wage. It woudln't affect his or her way of life in the slightest. They already have a life of lavish abundance as it is.



Agreed 100%. They are a beacon example of what the symbiot relationship between a company and it's employees should be.
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how many minimum wage employees does walmart have? how much difference does 30 million dollars make spread across that front? ($21 more to each employee for the year.) you seem to be saying that you are ok with the low minimum wage if the CEO is making a relatively small income.
 
#208
#208
Brave Volunteer said:
See that's what I'm getting at FLVOL. In too many cases, the ratio between what regular employees make and what corparate CEO's, VP's, etc make is too disproportionate. God forbid a CEO only take home 20 million a year instead of 35 so his or her employees can have benefits or a decent hourly wage. It woudln't affect his or her way of life in the slightest. They already have a life of lavish abundance as it is.



Agreed 100%. They are a beacon example of what the symbiot relationship between a company and it's employees should be.
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You take 15 million away from me a year and I can guarantee it will affect my way of life. It's so easy to talk about giving away someone else's money.
 
#209
#209
BearCat204 said:
You take 15 million away from me a year and I can guarantee it will affect my way of life. It's so easy to talk about giving away someone else's money.
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and he doesn't understand that 15 million split amongst a major corporation amounts to diddly squat.
 
#210
#210
Brave Volunteer said:
See that's what I'm getting at FLVOL. In too many cases, the ratio between what regular employees make and what corparate CEO's, VP's, etc make is too disproportionate. God forbid a CEO only take home 20 million a year instead of 35 so his or her employees can have benefits or a decent hourly wage. It woudln't affect his or her way of life in the slightest. They already have a life of lavish abundance as it is.



Agreed 100%. They are a beacon example of what the symbiot relationship between a company and it's employees should be.
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So let's take an example like McDonalds. Most are franchises, not corporate. The franchisee/owner is not making big bucks. A significant rise in his/her labor costs could easily turn the unit from profit to loss (margins are thin).

Profits are typically in the mid single digit range as a % of revenue.

Average revenue per store is 2.5 million.

Profit then is $150,000 (6% profit margin)

Assuming 10 employees/40 week - each $1 rise in the MW = about $21K in costs. At that rate, a franchise goes to zero profits at about $7 more/hour. Going to 10bucks/hour MW reduces profit to under 100,00k annually or a 35% reduction.

The demand for $15/hour will bankrupt virtually all McDs.

So any significant (multi dollar) increase in MW will have one of two (or both) effects: increase in prices or decrease in employment.

Note too to make up the additional $21,000 in labor costs associated with a 1 buck increase in MW the unit would need to generate as much as $350,000 in revenue (various depending on total amount attributed to labor in the profit margin)
 
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#211
#211
LouderVol said:
how many minimum wage employees does walmart have? how much difference does 30 million dollars make spread across that front? ($21 more to each employee for the year.) you seem to be saying that you are ok with the low minimum wage if the CEO is making a relatively small income.
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Interesting number perspective.

That means they could eat at the Subway inside of the store once a quarter.

Edit. Or the MCDs if they haven't shut the doors yet.
 
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#212
#212
LouderVol said:
and he doesn't understand that 15 million split amongst a major corporation amounts to diddly squat.
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At 1.3 million employees it amounts to $11.54 per worker per year. Hooray! Our problems are over!

Even if the CEO worked for free it would be a whopping $45.50 per worker per year...about 3 cents/hour increase in hourly wage (assuming 30 hours/week; 50 weeks/year)
 
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#213
#213
volinbham said:
At 1.3 million employees it amounts to $11.54 per worker per year. Hooray! Our problems are over!

Even if the CEO worked for free it would be a whopping $45.50 per worker per year...about 3 cents/hour increase in hourly wage (assuming 30 hours/week; 50 weeks/year)
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Maybe its more about just not liking what the CEO makes as posted above.
 
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#214
#214
Brave Volunteer said:
Of course not. However there has to be a "happy medium" somewhere. Employees shouldn't tell a business owner what to make or determine their own wages, but at the same time if a copmany's CEO who's earning 35 million per year cannot even provide benefits to his employees, that is gluttonous greed.
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WalMart does provide benefits to their full time employees. Pretty decent benefits from what I understand.
 
#215
#215
FLVOL_79 said:
Gotta be a reason why though besides outright bigotry or racism. Culture clash I am sure..one groups values aren't held in the same regard as another groups and things like honesty, integrity, and hard work play second fiddle to fun, thievery, and random jackassery.
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Who said those were the reasons?

Holy hell dude, I can't even believe what I'm reading.
 
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#216
#216
volinbham said:
So let's take an example like McDonalds. Most are franchises, not corporate. The franchisee/owner is not making big bucks. A significant rise in his/her labor costs could easily turn the unit from profit to loss (margins are thin).

Profits are typically in the mid single digit range as a % of revenue.

Average revenue per store is 2.5 million.

Profit then is $150,000 (6% profit margin)

Assuming 10 employees/40 week - each $1 rise in the MW = about $21K in costs. At that rate, a franchise goes to zero profits at about $7 more/hour. Going to 10bucks/hour MW reduces profit to under 100,00k annually or a 35% reduction.

The demand for $15/hour will bankrupt virtually all McDs.

So any significant (multi dollar) increase in MW will have one of two (or both) effects: increase in prices or decrease in employment.

Note too to make up the additional $21,000 in labor costs associated with a 1 buck increase in MW the unit would need to generate as much as $350,000 in revenue (various depending on total amount attributed to labor in the profit margin)
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This can't be true. It doesn't fit the narrative of multibillionaires building empires on the backs of slaves.
 

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#217
#217
BeecherVol said:
The "happy medium" is, if they feel like Im not paying them what they feel is right they move on. Ive done it myself.
If I lose good employees to competitors because of my compensation/benefits my business will suffer and force me to adjust. If not, I could run the risk of going under.

Who should get to decide what a CEO should make for any company? Who gets to define what "gluttonous greed" is?
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I'd sure like to know how many supporters of a MW increase have signed the front of a paycheck? Had to not take a paycheck in order to make payroll or deferred income to actually hire someone?
 
#219
#219
BearCat204 said:
You take 15 million away from me a year and I can guarantee it will affect my way of life. It's so easy to talk about giving away someone else's money.
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A big chunk of his 35 mil isn't actual cash in the first place.
 
#224
#224
My favorite is my friends on FB who voice their disgust with employers that make employees work holidays (for time and a half) and then these same friends voice their disgust at uber for jacking up prices on holidays.
 
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#225
#225
n_huffhines said:
My favorite is my friends on FB who voice their disgust with employers that make employees work holidays (for time and a half) and then these same friends voice their disgust at uber for jacking up prices on holidays.
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Time and half? Hell we pay double time for holidays, going to have to fix that.
 
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