The Minimum Wage: What's the Big Deal?

#176
#176
Brave Volunteer said:
The CEO of Wal-Mart makes 35 million a year. He makes more in an hour than his employees will earn in an entire year. Please explain to me how the "free market" works in this regard? As far as I'm concerned, NOBODY "earns" 35 million per year! Nobody! All the while Wal Mart encourages their employees to seek government subsidies for health care because they don't want to provide it.
Click to expand...

The cast of "Big Bang Theory" is paid $1 million per episode.

How much do you think the key grip on the set of that show is paid?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#177
#177
n_huffhines said:
I am pro-poor and I studied economics, which is why I don't support minimum wage laws.

The intent of minimum wage laws is admirable, but the problem is it creates unintended consequences. These happen whenever government interferes with natural market forces.

All economists will agree that minimum wage laws help people that keep their jobs, but that it creates some level of unemployment (employers make due with less labor because it becomes too expensive). The question is, does the benefit to the people with jobs outweigh the cost to people who lost their jobs?

Many economists have convincingly demonstrated that young black males are disproportionately hit with unemployment when minimum wage goes up.

In terms of result, I am opposed to minimum wage laws.

As a matter of ethics, I am opposed to minimum wage laws because it restricts freedom to choose.
Click to expand...

Do they say why? Is it when it comes time to trim the fat they go for the lowest performing employees and its a trend (low performing)?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#179
#179
volinbham said:
For those advocating a "living wage" (whatever that means) are you willing to reduce Federal direct transfer payments since the person now fully supports themselves?

If so, let's dump the corporate tax rate commensurate with the increase in MW, limit welfare type benefits to only those below the "living wage" and see what happens
Click to expand...

A glorious day?
 
#180
#180
FLVOL_79 said:
Do they say why? Is it when it comes time to trim the fat they go for the lowest performing employees and its a trend (low performing)?
Click to expand...

Well all low-skill workers are fairly expendable and based on the data it seems apparent that employers view young black males as the most expendable (whether justified or not).
 
#181
#181
Brave Volunteer said:
The CEO of Wal-Mart makes 35 million a year. He makes more in an hour than his employees will earn in an entire year. Please explain to me how the "free market" works in this regard? As far as I'm concerned, NOBODY "earns" 35 million per year! Nobody! All the while Wal Mart encourages their employees to seek government subsidies for health care because they don't want to provide it.
Click to expand...

What should he earn and how have you come to that conclusion?

My larger point is that if you begin your approach to understanding someone's view with the assumption they hate poor people then you will never get out of your bubble.

Capitalism and the free market have done more to raise the standard of living for people than any other system. It's not perfect to be sure.

To start with an assumption that people who support it (capitalism and the free market) as being morally inferior is just plain dumb.

I personally believe (and evidence exists to support the belief) that government handouts create a dependence cycle. Now I could approach people who support such government intervention with your attitude (that they want people dependent so they can exploit them for political power) but instead I start with an assumption that their intentions are good but I disagree with their policy views.

Try it sometime :hi:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#182
#182
Brave Volunteer said:
Go ahead and belittle all you want. I have a right to speak here too. If you don't agree fine but that doesn't mean you have to be an unmitigated ass while doing so.
Click to expand...

I take pride in being an unmitigated ass. It's better than thinking that the government produces wealth when it prints money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#183
#183
FLVOL_79 said:
Do they say why? Is it when it comes time to trim the fat they go for the lowest performing employees and its a trend (low performing)?
Click to expand...

God forbid that a corporate CEO might trim some of his or her own "fat" or deny themselves that huge quarterly bonus in order to avoid laying off their employees. Wow wouldn't that be breath of fresh air?
 
#184
#184
n_huffhines said:
I am pro-poor and I studied economics, which is why I don't support minimum wage laws.

The intent of minimum wage laws is admirable, but the problem is it creates unintended consequences. These happen whenever government interferes with natural market forces.

All economists will agree that minimum wage laws help people that keep their jobs, but that it creates some level of unemployment (employers make due with less labor because it becomes too expensive). The question is, does the benefit to the people with jobs outweigh the cost to people who lost their jobs?

Many economists have convincingly demonstrated that young black males are disproportionately hit with unemployment when minimum wage goes up.

In terms of result, I am opposed to minimum wage laws.

As a matter of ethics, I am opposed to minimum wage laws because it restricts freedom to choose.
Click to expand...

BS - you hate the poor and you know it. VP and BV said so.
 
#190
#190
n_huffhines said:
Well all low-skill workers are fairly expendable and based on the data it seems apparent that employers view young black males as the most expendable (whether justified or not).
Click to expand...

Gotta be a reason why though besides outright bigotry or racism. Culture clash I am sure..one groups values aren't held in the same regard as another groups and things like honesty, integrity, and hard work play second fiddle to fun, thievery, and random jackassery.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#191
#191
Brave Volunteer said:
The CEO of Wal-Mart makes 35 million a year. He makes more in an hour than his employees will earn in an entire year. Please explain to me how the "free market" works in this regard? As far as I'm concerned, NOBODY "earns" 35 million per year! Nobody! All the while Wal Mart encourages their employees to seek government subsidies for health care because they don't want to provide it.
Click to expand...

Well, the "free market" part is actually pretty easy to figure.

I own my business, should my employees tell me what they should make. And further tell me what I should make?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#192
#192
volinbham said:
What should he earn and how have you come to that conclusion?

My larger point is that if you begin your approach to understanding someone's view with the assumption they hate poor people then you will never get out of your bubble.

Capitalism and the free market have done more to raise the standard of living for people than any other system. It's not perfect to be sure.

To start with an assumption that people who support it (capitalism and the free market) as being morally inferior is just plain dumb.

I personally believe (and evidence exists to support the belief) that government handouts create a dependence cycle. Now I could approach people who support such government intervention with your attitude (that they want people dependent so they can exploit them for political power) but instead I start with an assumption that their intentions are good but I disagree with their policy views.

Try it sometime :hi:
Click to expand...

It's not about "hating poor people." I don't think a CEO actively "hates" poor people. It's more about living in a bubble and being oblivious to the hardships of their own employees. I'd say it's more about apathy than hate.
 
#194
#194
Brave Volunteer said:
It's not about "hating poor people." I don't think a CEO actively "hates" poor people. It's more about living in a bubble and being oblivious to the hardships of their own employees. I'd say it's more about apathy than hate.
Click to expand...

"I don't give a **** about everyone else as long as I have mine" mentality and start having a broader sense of communal responsibility for the good of the country as a whole
Click to expand...

Do you believe this is the mentality of those who oppose an increase in the minimum wage.

Also, what do you believe is "reasonable" for the MW - where should it be set and what is your metric (I'm curious)
 
#195
#195
Brave Volunteer said:
The CEO of Wal-Mart makes 35 million a year. He makes more in an hour than his employees will earn in an entire year. Please explain to me how the "free market" works in this regard? As far as I'm concerned, NOBODY "earns" 35 million per year! Nobody! All the while Wal Mart encourages their employees to seek government subsidies for health care because they don't want to provide it.
Click to expand...

instead of looking at the worst try looking at one of the better, COSTCO.
 
#196
#196
BeecherVol said:
Well, the "free market" part is actually pretty easy to figure.

I own my business, should my employees tell me what they should make. And further tell me what I should make?
Click to expand...

Of course not. However there has to be a "happy medium" somewhere. Employees shouldn't tell a business owner what to make or determine their own wages, but at the same time if a copmany's CEO who's earning 35 million per year cannot even provide benefits to his employees, that is gluttonous greed.
 
#197
#197
At the end of the day everyone wants to see everyone doing well. We would all like to make good money and have decent things in life. I doubt you'll find anyone who thinks otherwise. However that is not how the real world works. People wracked with empathy might have trouble coming to terms with the fact that we don't live in a perfect world and sh!t happens. Minimum wage helps to set a threshold that employers can't go under and that is a good thing. Employers pay you at what your value is to the company. If you're making minimum wage that means your value is disposable because you have an unskilled job.

It's the employees responsibility to assess their skills and future goals. When the pro sports / rapper / famous actress / well paid artist career paths don't pan out it seems that people do not or never had any sort of back up plan. They are suffering from the "Chase your dreams" mentality that sets most people up for failure.

Outside of adjusting for inflation raising minimum wage is going to do a few things. First it will increase costs. Costs will have to either be absorbed by the company (lol right) or passed on to the consumer in the form of higher priced goods (more likely). Price of goods go up and business will drop, maybe not by much but it's going to take a hit. $12 for a Big Mac anyone? The other big thing, and maybe more important one is that employers will expect employees to do with less. Less could be less employees, less equipment, etc, etc. Thirdly it will drive companies to become serious about automation which will eventually lead to Skynet and the end of the world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#198
#198
Brave Volunteer said:
Of course not. However there has to be a "happy medium" somewhere. Employees shouldn't tell a business owner what to make or determine their own wages, but at the same time if a copmany's CEO who's earning 35 million per year cannot even provide benefits to his employees, that is gluttonous greed.
Click to expand...

The other side to that coin is that people who work for a company like that are accepting not having benefits. If a company can't fill positions because the pay sucks or the benefits blow they will have to change the way they deal with things. But this America and people will do anything for money, benefits or high wages be damned.
 
#199
#199
I don't know if this point has been made yet. I've only read the first page.

Minimum wages are a great idea to ensure that people aren't being taken advantage of. The problem, however, is that in a free market, a prospective employee has an economic value associated with their skill/potential to provide value to a given employer. In some instances, a prospective employee might only have the ability to add $5 of value per hour for his employer. The employer will not hire a low skilled worker at a loss (if minimum wage is $15 per hour, that's $10 lost per hour. Would you hire this person under such circumstances?). Effectively, our hypothetical low skilled worker has been locked out of the market. The barrier in his way being the minimum wage. This person will not be able to join the work force, thus, they will not be able to gain experience and increase their market value. Thus, their economic mobility is arrested in place. If you are in favor of higher minimum wage, you are also in favor of limited economic mobility and greater unemployment. That's the kind of outcome you get when you try to dilute the free market with socialist ideologies. It does not work. Minimum wage sounds good, but it is not compatible with a free market.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people
#200
#200
Brave Volunteer said:
Of course not. However there has to be a "happy medium" somewhere. Employees shouldn't tell a business owner what to make or determine their own wages, but at the same time if a copmany's CEO who's earning 35 million per year cannot even provide benefits to his employees, that is gluttonous greed.
Click to expand...

The "happy medium" is, if they feel like Im not paying them what they feel is right they move on. Ive done it myself.
If I lose good employees to competitors because of my compensation/benefits my business will suffer and force me to adjust. If not, I could run the risk of going under.

Who should get to decide what a CEO should make for any company? Who gets to define what "gluttonous greed" is?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.
Advertisement

Back
Top