The mental gymnastics of Butch apologists

[508mikey]

Context people, context. I realize that Fulmer had not reached the SEC championship game after 4 years. Having said that, he was competing with Spurrier at Florida. That is to say that the competition Fulmer was up against was on a different level than the competition Butch is up against. I also realize that UT was a dumpster fire prior to Butch coming onboard and he has improved the program. Having said that, by year 3 Butch had a roster more than capable of winning a weak East division and hasn't done it yet and it's looking less and less likely that he will ever get us to Atlanta. I do not expect SEC titles or playoff appearances every year. However, I think it is a reasonable expectation that UT should at least make it to Atlanta on a regular basis. I also think that a truly good coach would have gotten UT there by now. That is to say that Butch is a midlevel coach and the SEC is too big of a stage for him.

 

[TAF]

"I LOVE me some BUTCH" - D. Mason

 

[butchna]

"I LOVE me some BUTCH" - D. Mason

He is 1-2 against him. Worth a dwarf dance. Bet he does the robot if he goes 2-0 against Smart.

 

[Memphisvol87]

So butch gives his oringinal staff adequate time to make their mark... we bring in talent, don't quite get where we need to be ( but still in the obvious right direction) then he makes changes.

People complain non stop about him... he keeps taking us in the right direction. Then we start what appears to be a '98 type season only to be completely smashed by injuries. Then butch takes responsibility by bringing in some big time hires to try to take the next step to elite status... we still have non stop complaining.

He does nothing.... complain all day

He makes changes... complain all day

After the 5 win season of fulmer to butchs first year at 5 wins... some of you should seriously try enjoying the floor butch set for post season play.

We had 2 appearances ending in losses out of 6 years. So yeah the standard isn't national championships.

There is nobody working harder to try and win one. It's really easy for me to like the guy giving his all to bring us back to elite.

 

[Behr]

So butch gives his oringinal staff adequate time to make their mark... we bring in talent, don't quite get where we need to be ( but still in the obvious right direction) then he makes changes.

People complain non stop about him... he keeps taking us in the right direction. Then we start what appears to be a '98 type season only to be completely smashed by injuries. Then butch takes responsibility by bringing in some big time hires to try to take the next step to elite status... we still have non stop complaining.

He does nothing.... complain all day

He makes changes... complain all day

After the 5 win season of fulmer to butchs first year at 5 wins... some of you should seriously try enjoying the floor butch set for post season play.

We had 2 appearances ending in losses out of 6 years. So yeah the standard isn't national championships.

There is nobody working harder to try and win one. It's really easy for me to like the guy giving his all to bring us back to elite.

That's VN bro.

Losing to SC and Vandy hurt us bad, and I'm talking about the fans.

Some sucked it up and are ready to move on. Some didn't.

 

[jarnol32]

I consider a good season to be one where expectations are met or exceeded. The expectation last year was to win the East and we failed to do that thus it was a bad season.

If you consider 9 wins including wins over Florida,Georgia,Virginia tech, and Nebraska a bad season then you might as well get used to being dissapointed. 9-4 is a pretty good season considering our top 3 defensive tackles all missed large portions of the season.

 

[smokey0625]

Last season was the only disappointing season since Butch has been here and in all honesty it was two games that took a great season and made it a good season. I think you started this thread to start another nega vs pumper thread. It is your right just like D4H can say this is an 11 win season coming up. Tennessee has NEVER consistently been a national championship contender. I hope we will be under CBJ but I would never expect it to happen more than once or twice in my lifetime. Atlanta is obtainable.

I want to sit next to you when I go to games.

 

[Roustabout]

I was criticizing Butch's body of work at UT thus far and a guy told me that every coach who has ever been at UT occasionally lost games they should have won. LOL! As if that is a good enough reason to quit criticizing Butch and accept the status quo. It's definitely true that every coach has had some bad losses in their coaching careers. Having said that, good coaches make up for those occasional bad losses with great seasons and upset wins. Fulmer, for example, had some bad losses but won a national title and competed for SEC championships on a regular basis. Meanwhile, Butch has still yet to get to Atlanta and has established a pattern of blowing a few games every year. So, by that Butch apologist's logic Butch and Fulmer are on the same footing because they both have bad losses on their resume.

I look at Fulmer with a lot more criticism. He had no excuse to allow the program to end up where it did.

 

[Squoshua17]

Lol @ the off-season. Don't get me wrong, I love our fan base for the perpetual optimism. I think it's pretty obvious that this is a pivotal year for Butch. Btw, speaking of Butch apologists... Does anyone else on here listen to the Rocky Talk podcast with Josh Ward? Mike Griffith is on there every day, and lately he has literally been going out of his way to defend Butch. Josh Ward could be talking about something completely different, and Griffith will somehow work the topic into how great of a job Butch has done, and that anyone who says he is on the hot seat is dead wrong. I really like the podcast, but Mike Griffith makes it difficult to listen to at times.

 

[ImportedVoL]

People who get paid millions to get results should always be under scrutiny. Especially if they regularly fail to meet expectations.

Ya...because expectations are sooo realistic around here.

We have one NC in the memories of just about anyone alive...but we should be winning them every year?...even when our starters are all injured and having to build a team up from next to nothing?..

Fans should be EXTREMELY thankful for what CBJ has done here...

Get off that high horse and come back to reality, makes the season much more enjoyable. :banghead2:

 

[BeecherVol]

I am not backing off. It is true that he politiced for the job. He is not lily white like some want to make him out to be. OP wanted to compare their first four years. How he got the job is important in that analysis. CPF cherry picked a dream situation. CBJ took a position many did not want. Both had skeptics after four years. CPF overcame skeptics and hopefully CBJ will do the same.

BTW, the OP accomplished his trolling purpose in getting real Vol fans to argue with one another.

I'm not saying he didn't. Just not sure why that's relevant to his coaching or lack thereof at times. That has and til the end of time will turn some personal opinions about him but when that overides what he did do you have changed the topic.

I want Jones to match Fulmer and beyond. I would have been fine with Kiffin or Dooley doing that.

 

[BeecherVol]

That wasn't the point. I agree cpf started in a lot better shape.

You just can't construe cpf's 1st 5 years as similar to CBJ 's....cpf's was a lot better, jones took over a much worse ship

There's no denying any of that. And Fulmer had an obstacle in the east that doesn't remain and that doesn't look to change in the near future.

 

[BeecherVol]

If you boat race Virginia Tech and Florida, beat Uga in Athens, and trounce Nebraska, you're doing more than enough right.

It's better than losing to them, absolutely.

Name recognition doesn't tell the full story of those programs current state however.

 

[RollerVol]

There's more to it than how many wins he achieves. If he sells tickets and tshirts UT will take that with a smile.

yep, no doubt, but have to be commpetitive also...only get a free pass for so long...

GO BIG ORANGE!

 

[BeecherVol]

yep, no doubt, but have to be commpetitive also...only get a free pass for so long...

GO BIG ORANGE!

I agree. And at some point if you don't clear a hurdle or 2 that you have as a program in the past the $ is not spent as much.

 

[Biopsyman]

cancel the program

 

[Vols_74]

True, and Jones took over 4+ years ago. UF is spinning it's wheels right now and their fans will tell you as much. UGA is in year 2 with a guy, that's in year 2 for him as a HC. It's not gonna get any easier than it is and has been..

Bama is not the obstacle UF was for winning the division. UF is the more important game while Bama historically is the biggest.

My point is that bama is a huge obstacle for UT to win the east because we play them every year and they are arguably the best team in the country every year while the others don't play bama most years. I love CPF but he didn't have to play bama at their best every year. It is much tougher for UT to win the east than for others in the east to do so just based on schedule alone each year.

 

[Burger]

My point is that bama is a huge obstacle for UT to win the east because we play them every year and they are arguably the best team in the country every year while the others don't play bama most years. I love CPF but he didn't have to play bama at their best every year. It is much tougher for UT to win the east than for others in the east to do so just based on schedule alone each year.

Last year, if we beat Vandy and SC, the Alabama loss doesn't matter.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

My point is that bama is a huge obstacle for UT to win the east because we play them every year and they are arguably the best team in the country every year while the others don't play bama most years. I love CPF but he didn't have to play bama at their best every year. It is much tougher for UT to win the east than for others in the east to do so just based on schedule alone each year.

Most every point you make in isolation is true:

1. Bama is a big obstacle every year (all good teams are).
2. Bama is one of the best teams in the country in the Saban era.
3. Others in the SEC East do not play Bama most years.
4. Phil Fulmer never had to play Bama at their best (during the Bear Bryant or Nick Saban years) (though he did have to play Florida at their best, the Spurrier era).

But when you put all that together, it doesn't mean nearly as much as you think it does.

Bama is just another team. A very good team, but beatable. We just have to get to where we can beat them. Not every time, but often enough to make it a real contest each year.

We don't have to wait for Saban to die, retire, or get Alzheimer's, either. And we don't necessarily have to get a new head coach (that one is not yet determined).

We just have to get back to our winning ways. To the Tennessee football of the Neyland and Fulmer eras.

Dunno if Butch can get us there, but I haven't ruled him out yet. I guess that makes me an "apologist" because I'm not yet willing to pick up a pitchfork.

Go Vols!

 

[Tin Man]

I was criticizing Butch's body of work at UT thus far and a guy told me that every coach who has ever been at UT occasionally lost games they should have won. LOL! As if that is a good enough reason to quit criticizing Butch and accept the status quo. It's definitely true that every coach has had some bad losses in their coaching careers. Having said that, good coaches make up for those occasional bad losses with great seasons and upset wins. Fulmer, for example, had some bad losses but won a national title and competed for SEC championships on a regular basis. Meanwhile, Butch has still yet to get to Atlanta and has established a pattern of blowing a few games every year. So, by that Butch apologist's logic Butch and Fulmer are on the same footing because they both have bad losses on their resume.

Here you go, Longsufferingvol. Take the self-flagellation of your fandom to the next level.

 

[volboy81]

I was criticizing Butch's body of work at UT thus far and a guy told me that every coach who has ever been at UT occasionally lost games they should have won. LOL! As if that is a good enough reason to quit criticizing Butch and accept the status quo. It's definitely true that every coach has had some bad losses in their coaching careers. Having said that, good coaches make up for those occasional bad losses with great seasons and upset wins. Fulmer, for example, had some bad losses but won a national title and competed for SEC championships on a regular basis. Meanwhile, Butch has still yet to get to Atlanta and has established a pattern of blowing a few games every year. So, by that Butch apologist's logic Butch and Fulmer are on the same footing because they both have bad losses on their resume.

Next time you criticize him remember, in the late 60s, Alabama fans were hollering to get rid of Bryant. He'd lost touch...couldn't coach any more! In the late 70s, Georgia fans wanted Dooley fired. I believe I remember rumblings from Clemson 2-3 years ago to get rid of Sweeney.

 

[BeecherVol]

My point is that bama is a huge obstacle for UT to win the east because we play them every year and they are arguably the best team in the country every year while the others don't play bama most years. I love CPF but he didn't have to play bama at their best every year. It is much tougher for UT to win the east than for others in the east to do so just based on schedule alone each year.

This topic has been covered pretty extensively in another thread. Bama is a huge obstacle to win the conference. Not the division. We dropped 2 games to the west last year and had the division won if we take care of the mid to lower end of the east. UF nor UGA are forcing anyone in the division to be perfect to win it. UF got rolled at Arky last year and lost 3 in a row to LSU before this year. GA got hammered by Ole Miss this year and Bama the year before.
Fulmer had a tougher route to get to Atl with the other power at the time being in his division. The winner rarely (if ever) played a better team after that game in the conference.

 

[robow]

Miserable SOB...did Butch Jones put the Pipe to one of the girls you had a crush on or something? Let it go..

Come on man..Butch is a bricklayer, not a pipefitter.

 

[Vols_74]

This topic has been covered pretty extensively in another thread. Bama is a huge obstacle to win the conference. Not the division. We dropped 2 games to the west last year and had the division won if we take care of the mid to lower end of the east. UF nor UGA are forcing anyone in the division to be perfect to win it. UF got rolled at Arky last year and lost 3 in a row to LSU before this year. GA got hammered by Ole Miss this year and Bama the year before.
Fulmer had a tougher route to get to Atl with the other power at the time being in his division. The winner rarely (if ever) played a better team after that game in the conference.

Yep. I think we all understand what happened last season. We have to be perfect in the east to win division. Hopefully we can stay healthy and not have a couple of our stars quit in the middle of the season. I believe we can win the east this season. Playing with bama is a new level we need to get to.

 

[Vols_74]

Most every point you make in isolation is true:

1. Bama is a big obstacle every year (all good teams are).
2. Bama is one of the best teams in the country in the Saban era.
3. Others in the SEC East do not play Bama most years.
4. Phil Fulmer never had to play Bama at their best (during the Bear Bryant or Nick Saban years) (though he did have to play Florida at their best, the Spurrier era).

But when you put all that together, it doesn't mean nearly as much as you think it does.

Bama is just another team. A very good team, but beatable. We just have to get to where we can beat them. Not every time, but often enough to make it a real contest each year.

We don't have to wait for Saban to die, retire, or get Alzheimer's, either. And we don't necessarily have to get a new head coach (that one is not yet determined).

We just have to get back to our winning ways. To the Tennessee football of the Neyland and Fulmer eras.

Dunno if Butch can get us there, but I haven't ruled him out yet. I guess that makes me an "apologist" because I'm not yet willing to pick up a pitchfork.

Go Vols!

I hope we can get there. I believe it takes an elite recruiter and a great XO guy to get it done. They don't necessarily have to be the same guy. Butch is the elite recruiter or at least can be and I believe he is trying to find the XO guys. Shoop is one, hope Scott can be one too.