The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#452
#452
GBO18 said:
n_huffines loves him some Simmons.
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I love his show but not particularly him. He gets great guests and he has Russillo on all the time who's way better than him. Simmons is a media genius but his basketball analysis and conversational logic is just meh. Like yesterday, paraphrasing:

Klosterman: the MJ and Lebron people are having 2 different conversations. The MJ people say MJ is the greatest and the Lebron people are saying Lebron is the best basketball player, which are two different things.

Simmons: MJ is better.

Klostermann: in what ways?

Simmons: He's just better.

Klostermann: so who is the better passer?

Simmons [defensively]: MJ is a really underrated passer.

Klostermann: OK, I'm not trying to dog MJ. I'm just asking who the better passer is.

Simmons: well, I guess Lebron because it's more a part of his DNA.

Klosterman: OK, who is the better rebounder?

Simmons [defensively]: MJ was a great rebounder and he's 2" shorter.

Klosterman: right, but who is the better rebounder?

...and so on

Simmons was having extreme difficulty fathoming what I feel was a pretty clear line of reasoning.
 
#453
#453
n_huffhines said:
None. What is your point? Michael Jordan would not have such a size/athleticism advantage in this era. He benefitted from playing in an era where 2's were typically small or not very athletic. Lebron is huge in any era and he's arguably the most athletic wing ever. That's the point.
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I have dispelled this lie already. The All NBA guards were bigger during the Jordan era. It's a literal fact. Height peaked in the 80s as well.

The league is also even more watered down now too. There was another EXPANSION in 04 diluting the talent pool even more.

Sorry
 
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#454
#454
n_huffhines said:
I love his show but not particularly him. He gets great guests and he has Russillo on all the time who's way better than him. Simmons is a media genius but his basketball analysis and conversational logic is just meh. Like yesterday, paraphrasing:

Klosterman: the MJ and Lebron people are having 2 different conversations. The MJ people say MJ is the greatest and the Lebron people are saying Lebron is the best basketball player, which are two different things.

Simmons: MJ is better.

Klostermann: in what ways?

Simmons: He's just better.

Klostermann: so who is the better passer?

Simmons [defensively]: MJ is a really underrated passer.

Klostermann: OK, I'm not trying to dog MJ. I'm just asking who the better passer is.

Simmons: well, I guess Lebron because it's more a part of his DNA.

Klosterman: OK, who is the better rebounder?

Simmons [defensively]: MJ was a great rebounder and he's 2" shorter.

Klosterman: right, but who is the better rebounder?

...and so on

Simmons was having extreme difficulty fathoming what I feel was a pretty clear line of reasoning.
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Jordan is a better rebounder and passes just as well. Shoots and defends much better.
 
#456
#456
Kerr: The hardest part was we knew it wasn't part of Scottie's character.

Pippen: If I had a chance to do it over again, I probably wouldn't change it.
 
#457
#457
Did not remember that BJ Armstrong was an all-star (he freaking started) or that he worked Jordan in the final possession of a playoff game. I remember him being good, but didn't realize that first 3peat team legitimately had 4 all-star caliber players. 43% career 3p shooter and 2.75:1 assist/turnover ratio.
 
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#459
#459
GBO18 said:
MJs reaction watching Payton’s interview was awesome.
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Personally, I thought that was pretty lame. GP gave him hell and then he made excuses. Doesn't seem very MJ-like.

Also, it's really disingenuous to have Horace Grant on here praising MJ the whole time, and then they glorify the series sweep revenge of the Magic and completely skip the fact that Grant got hurt in game 1 and missed the rest of the series.
 
#460
#460
n_huffhines said:
Did not remember that BJ Armstrong was an all-star (he freaking started) or that he worked Jordan in the final possession of a playoff game. I remember him being good, but didn't realize that first 3peat team legitimately had 4 all-star caliber players. 43% career 3p shooter and 2.75:1 assist/turnover ratio.
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BJ was not really an All Star caliber player. Stop it. He got a vote for being a starter on a team that used to have MJ so they were known winners. His "All Star" year he averaged 14.8 and 4 ast. He never scored that much in any season and only averaged more than 4 assists once. He was not an All Star player. Neither was Ho Grant. Both good role players.

If we count them like that then Lebron played with four All Stars and an All NBA defender on just the 13-14 Heat.

MJ had one All Star teammate. Pip. He made it six times while Mike played.
 
#461
#461
k-town_king said:
BJ was not really an All Star caliber player. Stop it. He got a vote for being a starter on a team that used to have MJ so they were known winners. His "All Star" year he averaged 14.8 and 4 ast. He never scored that much in any season and only averaged more than 4 assists once. He was not an All Star player. Neither was Ho Grant. Both good role players.

If we count them like that then Lebron played with four All Stars and an All NBA defender on just the 13-14 Heat.

MJ had one All Star teammate. Pip. He made it six times while Mike played.
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They were winning without MJ, hence the much deserved due BJ (and Grant) got. It's really hard to get 3 All-Stars from any one team, but especially the Bulls because MJ shot so much (26x per game in '93). The Heat had 3 all-stars because Lebron was shooting only 18x per game. If he had been taking 26, Bosh would have taken the hit and missed out. Being an all-star caliber player and being an all-star are just a difference in recognition, not in quality. I would say BJ getting the nod is also a referendum on how weak the east was at guard in 1994.

BJ's stats suffered because he spent his prime as 3rd or 4th banana as a PG in the triangle offense. Armstrong was in his prime when MJ played with him. Horace Grant was in his prime when MJ played with him. You can count Battier (35) and Ray Ray (38) if you want, but nobody else will. They were well past their primes with Lebron. Even Wade was a shell of his former self in 2014.
 
#463
#463
n_huffhines said:
They were winning without MJ, hence the much deserved due BJ (and Grant) got. It's really hard to get 3 All-Stars from any one team, but especially the Bulls because MJ shot so much (26x per game in '93). The Heat had 3 all-stars because Lebron was shooting only 18x per game. If he had been taking 26, Bosh would have taken the hit and missed out. Being an all-star caliber player and being an all-star are just a difference in recognition, not in quality. I would say BJ getting the nod is also a referendum on how weak the east was at guard in 1994.

BJ's stats suffered because he spent his prime as 3rd or 4th banana as a PG in the triangle offense. Armstrong was in his prime when MJ played with him. Horace Grant was in his prime when MJ played with him. You can count Battier (35) and Ray Ray (38) if you want, but nobody else will. They were well past their primes with Lebron. Even Wade was a shell of his former self in 2014.
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Dude stop. They were All Stars before Lebron. They were All Stars because they were All Stars without Lebron. Multiple times. Wade MJed the Heat to a title already and Bosh was one of the top big men in the league before Lebron turned him into a spot up shooter like he does to everyone decent he plays with.

BJ Armstrong was not even on the level of Mo Williams who was an actual All Star who played at an All Star level. His numbers in Milwaukee were even better than his Cleveland numbers. Larry Hughes, Boozer, Big Z. This is just the old Cleveland team. If you count BJ who made it once without MJ with 14.8 ppg and 3.9 apg then Lebron always had at least two All Stars with him.

No one counts BJ as an All Star. Not unless you want to make a dumb argument that MJ had several All Star teammates. His nod was name recognition due to playing on a team with Mike. Then benefiting by SEVERAL additions to the team in the off-season so they could still win and make the playoffs. BJ was a role player. When he left and played with GS at 28 he still only averaged 12 ppg and 4.9 assist. Then he fell off the map. MJ made role players like BJ look decent.
 
#464
#464
n_huffhines said:
This is a cool article. Not sure how much weight I put on their estimated expectations, but it's interesting:

View attachment 278648

View attachment 278649

How Many Titles Should Michael Jordan Have Won?
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I would love to see how that is formulated.

But here is the thing Lebron fans don't realize. MJ making the ECF vs the Pistons was a tougher road than several of LBJs Finals trips. He benefited from a weak East so when he finally played a real team he was an underdog. He got luck with the talent distribution.

No one thinks the Bills are a dynasty for losing four straight Sbs. The same with 8 Finals trips. You played scrubs then lost to the first decent team you play. If he was in the West he may have 4 trips. Maybe.

I also don't believe he was never favored to win a title even with the Heat. GTFOH

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#469
#469
n_huffhines said:
You make a lot of great points but Pippen was the best passer on the team and he's also 6' 8", so that's why you want him to pass the ball in. Kukoc was 6' 11" and had a 6' 7" guy defending him. Phil Jackson is smart. Pippen is a baby. The end.
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So, I finally watched the episode from Sunday that covered Pippen taking a seat. I did not recall that they had executed that play at least once, maybe more, with success during the season. Makes his bad look even worse to me (and I hate that he appeared to be apologetic only to undo it all by saying he'd wouldn't change anything if he had it to do over, lol).
 
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#470
#470
95 Vol Alum said:
So, I finally watched the episode from Sunday that covered Pippen taking a seat. I did not recall that they had executed that play at least once, maybe more, with success during the season. Makes his bad look even worse to me (and I hate that he appeared to be apologetic only to undo it all by saying he'd wouldn't change anything if he had it to do over, lol).
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Lmao I had to rewind it to confirm what he said
 
#471
#471
Kukoc is so overrated. He's a classic example of a guy who looks the part but the stats just aren't there to back up the eye test. I think Andrea Kramer called him an "incredible shooter" in the doc and everybody seems to remember it that way. He was a solid shooter, nothing more. He shot .729 from the FT line and .335 for his career from 3p (three seasons with the shortened 3p line), and it's not like he was shooting contested 3's off the dribble like guys today. He shot 32% from 10-16' and 40% from 16-22'.

He only had one season with more than 16 ppg. He didn't rebound well, he was an OK defender, but he was actually a really good passer, tho.
 
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#472
#472
It’s funny everyone assumed Michael would come out looking the worst (other than obviously Krause) but it’s actually been Pippen lol.

Also, does anyone else wish they had more stuff with Phil? He was so integral to those teams but they kind of gloss over him.
 
#473
#473
zjcvols said:
It’s funny everyone assumed Michael would come out looking the worst (other than obviously Krause) but it’s actually been Pippen lol.

Also, does anyone else wish they had more stuff with Phil? He was so integral to those teams but they kind of gloss over him.
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Big Phil guy thinks MJ is overrated? 🤡
 
#474
#474
zjcvols said:
It’s funny everyone assumed Michael would come out looking the worst (other than obviously Krause) but it’s actually been Pippen lol.

Also, does anyone else wish they had more stuff with Phil? He was so integral to those teams but they kind of gloss over him.
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There is no way MJ comes out looking the worst (or even bad) when he controls the entire narrative. Not that I believe the gambling conspiracies (suspension? James Jordan's death?), but they didn't have anybody on who even made a case for those conspiracies. They just mentioned that some people believe that because of his gambling ties. They also talked about how big of a deal everybody made of the Atlantic City night and made a case for how absurd the attention was, but if somebody today did that the attention would be even crazier.

Also, there is good reason Pip and Krause look the worst.

As for Phil, I loved the 5-10 minutes they spent on the triangle in action. I could use a lot more of that. The triangle allowed MJ to get massive amounts of shots while keeping his teammates involved. It was the perfect system for him.
 
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