The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#426
#426
95 Vol Alum said:
Well, no way to excuse but maybe understand them to some level. Has anyone that talented been treated that "poorly" by an organization? I don't think he came into the league like that but, over time, morphed into a bitter person. But, I don't know him either so who is really to say.
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I can't fault the Bulls for signing Pippen to a team friendly deal. Nobody held a gun to Pippen's head.
 
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#427
#427
95 Vol Alum said:
Well, no way to excuse but maybe understand them to some level. Has anyone that talented been treated that "poorly" by an organization? I don't think he came into the league like that but, over time, morphed into a bitter person. But, I don't know him either so who is really to say.
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I dispute that he was treated poorly. Was he underpaid? Yes. He agreed to the contract tho, and I don't fault him for trying to hold out. That's not what bothers me about him. Whatever he said about Kukoc not belonging in the league, and literally sitting out because a play wasn't drawn up for him (by one of the most player friendly coaches) are the biggest things. This Barkley thing doesn't help. I also have this memory of him taking a cheap shot on Kobe when he was a Blazer.
 
#428
#428
Kobe had a rib injury. Pip called it fake (i didn't remember that part) and then hit him in the ribs

 
#429
#429
GAVol said:
I can't fault the Bulls for signing Pippen to a team friendly deal. Nobody held a gun to Pippen's head.
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No argument. Most people deflect their poor decisions onto others, though. He became bitter about it, it would appear.
 
#430
#430
n_huffhines said:
I dispute that he was treated poorly. Was he underpaid? Yes. He agreed to the contract tho, and I don't fault him for trying to hold out. That's not what bothers me about him. Whatever he said about Kukoc not belonging in the league, and literally sitting out because a play wasn't drawn up for him (by one of the most player friendly coaches) are the biggest things. This Barkley thing doesn't help. I also have this memory of him taking a cheap shot on Kobe when he was a Blazer.
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Let me restate. I believe he felt he was poorly treated.

Underpaid
Then maligned when he finally has leverage.
2nd fiddle to MJ
Then made to feel 2nd fiddle with the Kukoc courting and then the play. MJ never had to concede a final shot especially to a rookie.

That stuff probably built up in his head. Maybe he’s an arrogant, entitled jerk his whole life, but given his humble beginnings, that seems out of place to me.
 
#431
#431
95 Vol Alum said:
Let me restate. I believe he felt he was poorly treated.

Underpaid
Then maligned when he finally has leverage.
2nd fiddle to MJ
Then made to feel 2nd fiddle with the Kukoc courting and then the play. MJ never had to concede a final shot especially to a rookie.

That stuff probably built up in his head. Maybe he’s an arrogant, entitled jerk his whole life, but given his humble beginnings, that seems out of place to me.
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I never got the impression he cared about being 2nd fiddle to MJ. I get the impression he wanted MJ back.

There are always reasons people are dicks and I can usually be pretty sympathetic about that, but it's hard to dredge up much sympathy for a millionaire who had the job I want, LOL. Maybe I should be. Kukoc did nothing wrong to him. Pippen was not ever 2nd fiddle to Kukoc. It's just petty and seems inexcusable. Refusing to go in the game is peak crybaby athlete. I can't think of anything that tops it.
 
#432
#432
n_huffhines said:
I never got the impression he cared about being 2nd fiddle to MJ. I get the impression he wanted MJ back.

There are always reasons people are dicks and I can usually be pretty sympathetic about that, but it's hard to dredge up much sympathy for a millionaire who had the job I want, LOL. Maybe I should be. Kukoc did nothing wrong to him. Pippen was not ever 2nd fiddle to Kukoc. It's just petty and seems inexcusable. Refusing to go in the game is peak crybaby athlete. I can't think of anything that tops it.
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The 2nd fiddle to MJ was my take, so you could be right about that. Certainly if you can't get paid, might as well win championships.

The play was bad form. But he's a top 50 player being asked to inbound the ball to a rookie. He handled it poorly, but what other team stars are asked to give the ball up to a rookie to go win the game? He was made to feel 2nd fiddle in that moment.

Kukoc didn't do anything overt to Pippen, but "Kukoc" swirled around Pippen's contract and FO dealings before he ever even decided to join the team and then throughout their shared tenure. Krause was enamored with Kukoc, and it rubbed Pippen wrong. And then once he had Kukoc, Krause starts entertaining a trade of Pippen. That's what I equate to being treated like a 2nd fiddle by the FO.

Ultimately, he made a bad contract decision to help his family members (not a dick move) in a time where contracts were crazy dumb and the TV market (and salary cap) had not fully bloomed. He "recovered" later in his career, of course and does not need sympathy.
 
#433
#433
95 Vol Alum said:
The 2nd fiddle to MJ was my take, so you could be right about that. Certainly if you can't get paid, might as well win championships.

The play was bad form. But he's a top 50 player being asked to inbound the ball to a rookie. He handled it poorly, but what other team stars are asked to give the ball up to a rookie to go win the game? He was made to feel 2nd fiddle in that moment.

Kukoc didn't do anything overt to Pippen, but "Kukoc" swirled around Pippen's contract and FO dealings before he ever even decided to join the team and then throughout their shared tenure. Krause was enamored with Kukoc, and it rubbed Pippen wrong. And then once he had Kukoc, Krause starts entertaining a trade of Pippen. That's what I equate to being treated like a 2nd fiddle by the FO.

Ultimately, he made a bad contract decision to help his family members (not a dick move) in a time where contracts were crazy dumb and the TV market (and salary cap) had not fully bloomed. He "recovered" later in his career, of course and does not need sympathy.
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You make a lot of great points but Pippen was the best passer on the team and he's also 6' 8", so that's why you want him to pass the ball in. Kukoc was 6' 11" and had a 6' 7" guy defending him. Phil Jackson is smart. Pippen is a baby. The end.
 
#434
#434
n_huffhines said:
You make a lot of great points but Pippen was the best passer on the team and he's also 6' 8", so that's why you want him to pass the ball in. Kukoc was 6' 11" and had a 6' 7" guy defending him. Phil Jackson is smart. Pippen is a baby. The end.
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It was obviously a good play. Ego got the best of Scottie.
 
#438
#438
That is completely invalid. Jordan's physical dominance was never about his sheer size and I could name a ton of guys from the 90s that you've never heard of that were 6'6" 200.
 
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#439
#439
TBrown said:
I rEmEmBeR jOrDaN wOrKinG oUt wItH LiGht wEiGhTs
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Uhhh...Jordan was doing 95 with a spotter on military and he's a 2 guard. Lonzo is a young PG that nobody would say is a great athlete and that looks like 60 on each side, not sure what the bar is
 
#440
#440
GAVol said:
That is completely invalid. Jordan's physical dominance was never about his sheer size and I could name a ton of guys from the 90s that you've never heard of that were 6'6" 200.
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Of course it wasn't and nobody said it was
 
#441
#441
n_huffhines said:
Of course it wasn't and nobody said it was
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That whole meme was a dumbass comparison of heights and weights.

I get arguing for Lebron or Kobe because they played in a more modern style game, but it's goofy to knock the 80s and 90s as if they were the 1950s just because you didn't see them live and pretend human evolution has advanced 200 years in the last 20.
 
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#442
#442
GAVol said:
That whole meme was a dumbass comparison of heights and weights.

I get arguing for Lebron or Kobe because they played in a more modern style game, but it's goofy to knock the 80s and 90s as if they were the 1950s just because you didn't see them live and pretend human evolution has advanced 200 years in the last 20.
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Sorry comparing height and weight triggers you
 
#444
#444
Ball, Dinwiddie, etc do not match Jordan's athleticism and shooting. So, no, they have not changed with those examples. As GA said, plenty of guys then and now who are 6'6" and 215.
 
#445
#445
95 Vol Alum said:
Ball, Dinwiddie, etc do not match Jordan's athleticism and shooting. So, no, they have not changed with those examples. As GA said, plenty of guys then and now who are 6'6" and 215.
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Jordan was a big, athletic SG. I do not dispute that there were many 6' 5"+ 200+ lb guys in the NBA in say 1990. What I do believe is that there were not many good SG's athletic and big enough to defend Jordan. The Knicks didn't have a guy like this. The best guy for defending Jordan was 6' 2" Starks. The Pistons were putting 6' 3" Dumars on him. The Lakers were putting 6' 4" Byron Scott on him. The Celtics did not have a guy like this. They were putting 6' 4" Dennis Johnson on him. The Sonics were putting 6' 3" Hawkins and 6' 4" GP on him. The Blazers did have Drexler. Ehlo had good size and was a solid enough defender, but not that great of an athlete. The Suns had Majerle who was so slow, they were putting 6' 1" Kevin Johnson on Jordan. The Jazz had Russell who was big and athletic, and held Jordan to below-league average shooting efficiency. Imagine that. These are the guys on the playoff teams that Jordan faced. These are the guys that mattered.

Nobody is saying there weren't big players in 1990. Nobody is saying being big is all Jordan was athletically. These conversations are pretty useless because people try to warp arguments so that they're easy to defeat instead of just admitting that most of the quality 2's in the NBA were not big and athletic.

Edit: i should've included Reggie. He was a very good defender and MJ did well against him the one series they had. Nick Anderson had good size but wasn't known for D
 
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#446
#446
n_huffhines said:
Jordan was a big, athletic SG. I do not dispute that there were many 6' 5"+ 200+ lb guys in the NBA in say 1990. What I do believe is that there were not many good SG's athletic and big enough to defend Jordan. The Knicks didn't have a guy like this. The best guy for defending Jordan was 6' 2" Starks. The Pistons were putting 6' 3" Dumars on him. The Lakers were putting 6' 4" Byron Scott on him. The Celtics did not have a guy like this. They were putting 6' 4" Dennis Johnson on him. The Sonics were putting 6' 3" Hawkins and 6' 4" GP on him. The Blazers did have Drexler. Ehlo had good size and was a solid enough defender, but not that great of an athlete. The Suns had Majerle who was so slow, they were putting 6' 1" Kevin Johnson on Jordan.

Nobody is saying there weren't big players in 1990. Nobody is saying being big is all Jordan was athletically. These conversations are pretty useless because people try to warp arguments so that they're easy to defeat instead of just admitting that most of the quality 2's in the NBA were not big and athletic.
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How many wings are as big as Lebron?
 
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#447
#447
TBrown said:
How many wings are as big as Lebron?
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None. What is your point? Michael Jordan would not have such a size/athleticism advantage in this era. He benefitted from playing in an era where 2's were typically small or not very athletic. Lebron is huge in any era and he's arguably the most athletic wing ever. That's the point.
 
#448
#448
Look at it this way. Grab the 90's Bulls and put them in last year's playoffs. Here are the other top 4 teams in the east and the WC champs, and who'd* they put on Jordan:

Bucks = Brogdon, Middleton
Raptors = Kawhi, Green
76ers = Butler
Celtics = Brown, Smart, Tayum, Hayward
Warriors = Klay, Iggy, Durant

It's no fkn contest. Those are all good, athletic defenders with size. Smart is the only one that isn't 6' 5" and he's a tank with a 6' 9" wingspan.

*I'm counting injured guys because none of those guys I mentioned from the Jordan era were defending MJ because somebody else was hurt
 
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#449
#449
Simmons and Klostermann had a long convo today about the differences between the eras
 
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