The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#376
#376
n_huffhines said:
As @GAVol alluded to, Augmon made the league specifically because he was an athlete. Why are we comparing him to a guy that makes the league as a 3p specialist? If we're going to single guys out, shouldn't we be comparing Huerter to Tim Legler or somebody along those lines? We might as well compare centers to PG's.
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If athletes were so evolved even the so called specialist would be physical freaks compared to their counter parts. The fact is the league is the same now as then. Some great athletes and some not so great athletes.
 
#377
#377
k-town_king said:
LMAO. This is why your arguments have no weight. He scored 69. So he put up 70 damn near.

So what you are saying is actual 2 guards today, no matter how tall, can't check him?

If he played today he would average about 47 a game. He would be like Harden mixed with kawhi mixed with KD mixed with Kyrie.
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Nobody is stopping prime MJ in any era. A team like the Warriors is much better equipped to slow him down than any team he ever faced, tho.

Ehlo = 6' 6" 180 at age 22
Huerter = 6' 7" 190 at age 20
 
#379
#379
n_huffhines said:
Nobody is stopping prime MJ in any era. A team like the Warriors is much better equipped to slow him down than any team he ever faced, tho.

Ehlo = 6' 6" 180 at age 22
Huerter = 6' 7" 190 at age 20
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So about the same. The great athletes are great athletes in any era. There are also plenty of nonathletic specialist in each era. Also Ehlo is listed as 200 pounds on google and his wiki. But maybe that was his drafted weight which I guess basketball reference uses. I haven't seen them have a weight right yet on a player drafted before the 90s.

NBA athletes haven't changed much in the last 30 years ability wise. Longevity of careers and better recovery are the biggest advancements.
 
#380
#380
That John Starks dunk never gets old.

The Kukoc stuff was awesome. I knew the whole story but I came out of it thinking it was nothing personal for MJ, which that wasn't clear before.

Also, can you imagine if prime Lebron retired because he was mentally tired? We'd never hear the end of it. Also, can you imagine if Lebron gave up the ball on the final possession of a game 6 with 6' 1" Kevin Johnson guarding him?
 
#381
#381
n_huffhines said:
That John Starks dunk never gets old.

The Kukoc stuff was awesome. I knew the whole story but I came out of it thinking it was nothing personal for MJ, which that wasn't clear before.

Also, can you imagine if prime Lebron retired because he was mentally tired? We'd never hear the end of it. Also, can you imagine if Lebron gave up the ball on the final possession of a game 6 with 6' 1" Kevin Johnson guarding him?
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KJ was a great athlete and defender. LBJ gave it up with Steph Curry on him and the game on the line. :rolleyes:
 
#383
#383
k-town_king said:
KJ was a great athlete and defender. LBJ gave it up with Steph Curry on him and the game on the line. :rolleyes:
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Yeah, and Lebron gets scrutinized for this stuff. He got killed for passing to a wide open teammate* against the Mavs. MJ gets a pass when he makes a smart play instead of ball hogging. MJ may have retired earlier if he didn't.

Also, KJ was nothing special at all on D. Gimme a break

*IIRC it was Haslem on the baseline, which was his spot. MJ passed to a guy who wasn't open for a shot.
 
#384
#384
n_huffhines said:
Also, can you imagine if prime Lebron retired because he was mentally tired? We'd never hear the end of it.
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I don't think we have heard the end of it with MJ.

I am not picking a side on what I am about to postulate - just thinking out loud:

MJ cultivated a narrative that he had to change to become a winner which has been reinforced in this doc. And, of course, he became a big winner in that effort. Couple that with not being labeled as a prodigy in high school.

To me, LeBron hasn't created a similar narrative and has been a prodigy since HS. I wonder if that is a key difference in how they are viewed relative to one another. Did MJ have to "work at it" vs it coming to LeBron "naturally"?

Not to suggest that LeBron has not worked on his game - I am quite sure he has but it just isn't discussed much (that I notice anyway). It's maybe a perception that he has just been doing this on his natural talent vs working hard to improve so people are more critical of it (he just lucked into his body and athletic skill).

This makes sense in my head but hard to type out effectively. There are a number of other factors when comparing them but that one I don't hear discussed much.
 
#385
#385
95 Vol Alum said:
I don't think we have heard the end of it with MJ.

I am not picking a side on what I am about to postulate - just thinking out loud:

MJ cultivated a narrative that he had to change to become a winner which has been reinforced in this doc. And, of course, he became a big winner in that effort. Couple that with not being labeled as a prodigy in high school.

To me, LeBron hasn't created a similar narrative and has been a prodigy since HS. I wonder if that is a key difference in how they are viewed relative to one another. Did MJ have to "work at it" vs it coming to LeBron "naturally"?

Not to suggest that LeBron has not worked on his game - I am quite sure he has but it just isn't discussed much (that I notice anyway). It's maybe a perception that he has just been doing this on his natural talent vs working hard to improve so people are more critical of it (he just lucked into his body and athletic skill).

This makes sense in my head but hard to type out effectively. There are a number of other factors when comparing them but that one I don't hear discussed much.
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MJ was scrutinized, no doubt. It's just for different things. I don't think MJ was ever criticized for making the right play (and rightly so), which was my point.

To me, it feels like Lebron works as hard as anyone. Also, his basketball IQ is on another level. His bag of tricks over the years has grown immensely. He wasn't a 3p shooter nor did he have his bully ball moves in the first half of his career and now those are huge parts of his game.
 
#386
#386
n_huffhines said:
MJ was scrutinized, no doubt. It's just for different things. I don't think MJ was ever criticized for making the right play (and rightly so), which was my point.

To me, it feels like Lebron works as hard as anyone. Also, his basketball IQ is on another level. His bag of tricks over the years has grown immensely. He wasn't a 3p shooter nor did he have his bully ball moves in the first half of his career and now those are huge parts of his game.
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MJ was criticized (dismissed) for his style of play until he changed (somewhat) and started winning championships.

Agree on the 3 pt shooting. But, it sure feels like, without going back and looking at cherry picked highlight videos, his game was primarily to use his freakish size and agility to attack at the rim throughout his career. Maybe he added some moves I'm not recognizing, but I have always thought his strength/skill to be bully ball.
 
#387
#387
95 Vol Alum said:
MJ was criticized (dismissed) for his style of play until he changed (somewhat) and started winning championships.

Agree on the 3 pt shooting. But, it sure feels like, without going back and looking at cherry picked highlight videos, his game was primarily to use his freakish size and agility to attack at the rim throughout his career. Maybe he added some moves I'm not recognizing, but I have always thought his strength/skill to be bully ball.
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He added the bully ball in Miami, IIRC, but it wasn't a huge part of his game until Cleveland part 2. Not sure when he added the step back 3 but i'm pretty sure it wasn't in Cleveland the first go round.
 
#388
#388
Lebron has no moves. No creativity. He is fast for his size with good fundamental handles. That is why his one iconic play is a block on a geriatric Iggy who barely got off the ground. He doesn't have the highlight ankle breakers, shots and and-1s like Mike.
 
#389
#389
Just watched this. Almost everything came face up off the dribble or in transition. He had 1-1/2 back to the basket buckets and one step back jump shot. I would guess this is fairly representative of who he was at the time. Those are much bigger parts of his game now.

 
#392
#392
n_huffhines said:
Just watched this. Almost everything came face up off the dribble or in transition. He had 1-1/2 back to the basket buckets and one step back jump shot. I would guess this is fairly representative of who he was at the time. Those are much bigger parts of his game now.

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That's interesting. I watched this collection of highlights from 08-09. Seems like there are a lot of half court plays that are high screen for LeBron and let him bulldoze to the rim for a lay up against the 2nd level. Maybe I don't know what is meant by bully ball but freight train coming is what I meant by it.

 
#393
#393
95 Vol Alum said:
That's interesting. I watched this collection of highlights from 08-09. Seems like there are a lot of half court plays that are high screen for LeBron and let him bulldoze to the rim for a lay up against the 2nd level. Maybe I don't know what is meant by bully ball but freight train coming is what I meant by it.

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By bully ball, I mean when he puts his back to the defender and just pounds his way to the basket and either does that one-handed pass when the help dives or gets the layup/turnaround. The first few on here are more finesse illustrations, but you get half a minute in and he's just crushing his defender.

 
#394
#394


I don't agree with everything here but it is trash the way they treat Krause.
 
#395
#395
zjcvols said:


I don't agree with everything here but it is trash the way they treat Krause.
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The most eye-opening thing about this doc is what a baby Pippen is. It's kinda turned me off to him. The doc doesn't exactly make it clear why Krause was out on Phil, but Pip and Jordan got what they asked for and they have nobody to blame but themselves. If Jordan were a professional, he would've had all the sway he needed to keep Phil.

FWIW, Kerr was on the Zach Lowe pod a little bit ago and he said Krause rubbed every player the wrong way at one point or another. That being said, who hasn't had to deal with a dick boss? It's not like they have to be around him all day every day. Deal with it like adults.
 
#396
#396
zjcvols said:


I don't agree with everything here but it is trash the way they treat Krause.
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That’s the most backhanded defense of a person one could give.

MJ is a great basketball player and a flawed human being, likely those are complementary traits for him. But the writer can’t help disparage Krause while trying to defend him. Dude just invited bullying even when dead, I guess.
 
#397
#397
95 Vol Alum said:
That’s the most backhanded defense of a person one could give.

MJ is a great basketball player and a flawed human being, likely those are complementary traits for him. But the writer can’t help disparage Krause while trying to defend him. Dude just invited bullying even when dead, I guess.
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I have no proof of this and maybe I should not say this but I wonder if Krause was a racist or something. The absolute contempt that MJ and Scottie (especially Scottie) have towards him is abnormal. Even if Krause was a dick. I mean most people choose to let that stuff slide when they get older especially and accomplish as much as they did. And even after he's died they still refuse to say one positive thing and MJ has no problem painting the dead guy as a villian.
 
#398
#398
Shaq and Kobe legit hated each other and Kobe threw Shaq under the bus alleging he paid off girls to keep quiet about his affairs while being interviewed and they were buddy/buddy less than 10 years later. It is just extremely odd.
 
#399
#399
zjcvols said:
I have no proof of this and maybe I should not say this but I wonder if Krause was a racist or something. The absolute contempt that MJ and Scottie (especially Scottie) have towards him is abnormal. Even if Krause was a dick. I mean most people choose to let that stuff slide when they get older especially and accomplish as much as they did. And even after he's died they still refuse to say one positive thing and MJ has no problem painting the dead guy as a villian.
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I feel like they would say that (or somebody would) if it were the case.
 
#400
#400
zjcvols said:
Shaq and Kobe legit hated each other and Kobe threw Shaq under the bus alleging he paid off girls to keep quiet about his affairs while being interviewed and they were buddy/buddy less than 10 years later. It is just extremely odd.
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It's just MJ, IMO. He holds grudges. We're all aware of Zeke and Krause, but he doesn't talk to Chuck either because he's such a baby about Chuck's critiques of his front office management of the Hornets.
 
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