The Kim Caldwell System

[volsagain]

This is a great explanation of why it could work at Glenville and even at Marshall during their regular season, until they encountered Virginia Tech. But to expect it to work night in and night out against the best in the SEC, it’s not happening. Can we pull a few upsets—sure.

Perhaps we would have been better off to flip flop our schedule and start out with all these season ending ranked teams and save our 6-0 starting record to end the season. Too many fans forgot to look at what was ahead and were so hyped about being in 1st place when we were 6-0.

I listened to today’s presser and am glad she still feels she hasn’t lost the team, and that fixing a few things can make the difference. We will find out when we play LSU and Vandy. Even a close loss will give us some hope but please not another 20-30 point blow-out to a top team. Please allow your best players to compete and stay on the court together for awhile, Kim. Give them a chance to prove themselves. Sub as needed and with purpose. No chaos please. Run some offense. I want us to look poised, prepared and confident on the court. Not halter shelter!

Very much how I see it . One of the biggest things I noticed is it's the personal on the floor that has to run the offense. I watched the 2 games posted in the threads the championship game and the lose in the final 4. The personal in the championship game ran the offense the way it's intended to be run . The final 4 lose they were rushing 3 point shots and not working the ball. She had lost her 2 point guards from the championship team to the transfer portal they ran the offense well just like our guards did last year. We didn't really have the post players last year and especially not this year to have a complete team.

 

[Chipperbones]

And to add to this, the competition she was playing was not at the level of most SEC teams. I think about the press and when we play the so called cupcakes we cause so many turnovers because many at that level are not elite ball handlers. But you are hardly going to faze Raven Johnson etc. Kim’s championship team executed well against their competition but we all know it would not have looked like that against most teams in the SEC. They aren’t playing in the SEC for a reason, no matter how efficient they were. Thats no disrespect to them.

Now is it possible to take the cream of the crop with this system and have success? I guess we will find out. First we need ten elite interchangeable players. A feat in itself. But that’s why she is getting paid the million dollar salary. To get it done.

 

[volsagain]

And to add to this, the competition she was playing was not at the level of most SEC teams. I think about the press and when we play the so called cupcakes we cause so many turnovers because many at that level are not elite ball handlers. But you are hardly going to faze Raven Johnson etc. Kim’s championship team executed well against their competition but we all know it would not have looked like that against most teams in the SEC. They aren’t playing in the SEC for a reason, no matter how efficient they were. Thats no disrespect to them.

Now is it possible to take the cream of the crop with this system and have success? I guess we will find out. First we need ten elite interchangeable players. A feat in itself. But that’s why she is getting paid the million dollar salary. To get it done.

I just don't think it's realistic to count on having 10 exceptional players and do 5 x 5 subbing. Think she needs to sub 2 or 3 at each stage keeping 2 or 3 of your top 5 on the floor at all times and that in it's self takes a lot of really good personal . She's still adjusting and has stopped trapping full game.

 

[chuckiepoo]

You've got to understand sometimes you can only buy what you can afford. We don't know who was on top of the list. Think Barker was the highest priced and she has a attitude problem. On the cheap that never panned out was Wolf. Robertson just been too unsteady. Freshman would like to keep Prawl, Civil and Hurst for the twins Dad may end up being a problem also. Sometimes it's just hard to get a team to come together with 8 new players.

The twins need to decide if they want to play for Kim or their Dad. Coming out with a public statement would be nice. Until that point in time, imma leavea sounds about right.

 

[chuckiepoo]

I don't think the fans here are any different than fans at other schools. You just don't see the craziness when the season is going great.

 

[chuckiepoo]

I'm definitely not a person who goes and sits in corner rocking back and forth in fetal position because we lost.

…you never did fit in around here…

 

[chuckiepoo]

Scorching new article

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Can we get a breakdown, possibly a quote or two?

 

[RetroVol]

Last year, Kim said she was going to go looking for 10 more points per game. In retrospect, I think she would have been better off to focus on 10 points less allowed to the opposing team. In out best games against good opponents this year, it's been defense that has let us down. Someone on this forum brought up Pat's quote: “Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships.” Game in and game out, defense keeps you from losing games you shouldn't and let's you win more than your fair share of those against equal opponents. And, at the highest level, where offense and defense are good on both sides, rebounding -- the effort stat -- makes the difference.

 

[spojo13]

So i guess its gone be ok to have a team full of Juco and D2 and 3 players but everyone killed Kellie cause she was getting 4stars and the whole thing was she could not get big time players, but that's the standard now

Yeah, didn’t we have DP in here claiming that the death knell for Kellie was her inability to get recruits? I guess as long as we get them then it doesn’t matter if we keep them.

 

[volbeast33]

Yeah, didn’t we have DP in here claiming that the death knell for Kellie was her inability to get recruits? I guess as long as we get them then it doesn’t matter if we keep them.

Kellie had five years. It was time for her to go. It might be time for Kim to go as early as next season.

 

[volforlife10]

Kellie had five years. It was time for her to go. It might be time for Kim to go as early as next season.

yes, but DW promised better results than what kellie had, and this is NOT it. DW is too egotistical to admit he’s wrong, so he’d rather sink a program that help build women’s basketball. he’s disgusting.

 

[RetroVol]

Looks like (1) Kim's staying and (2) she's going to play some version of her system. I know, I know! That's like nails on a chalkboard to some posters on this forum, but that's where we are. Looking forward, the "it'll never work in the SEC" is a legitimate position to hold, but not warranting a lot of discussion at this time. What's left to say? On the other hand, there's room to talk about how the system might change and how the new team might fit make it work better than this year (yeah, a low bar).

The outline of the system at the start of this thread still seems to me a pretty fair listing of both the components and their prioritization, including making the 5-5 sub patterns the least important component. Which, since it seems to be the most-despised aspect, leads to the question of whether it might change next year?

Just based on transfer visits so far, it looks like she means to go into next year with more 3-pt shooting than she had this year. That would put her closer to 24-25 when Spear, Spencer, and Darby accounted for a huge chunk of our 3pt attempts at a >35% combined rated (which also was a big chunk of our points).

As for substitutions, she played with that this year and also seemed to back off on the press. We know from what she's said that she wants more consistent units, which she had in 24-25 but never found this year. Beyond that, I think that, with TV timeouts and replay stoppages, she might consider giving a bit more time to her top unit. However, I don't expect to see her back off on the press. I've said before, I expect when she goes through the replays of games this year, she sees over and over where it was a problem of failure to commit and execute, not a problem with the concept.

I'm sure others have better thoughts, but I'll end with this that cropped up on X this morning.

 

[glv98]

Looks like (1) Kim's staying and (2) she's going to play some version of her system. I know, I know! That's like nails on a chalkboard to some posters on this forum, but that's where we are. Looking forward, the "it'll never work in the SEC" is a legitimate position to hold, but not warranting a lot of discussion at this time. What's left to say? On the other hand, there's room to talk about how the system might change and how the new team might fit make it work better than this year (yeah, a low bar).

The outline of the system at the start of this thread still seems to me a pretty fair listing of both the components and their prioritization, including making the 5-5 sub patterns the least important component. Which, since it seems to be the most-despised aspect, leads to the question of whether it might change next year?

Just based on transfer visits so far, it looks like she means to go into next year with more 3-pt shooting than she had this year. That would put her closer to 24-25 when Spear, Spencer, and Darby accounted for a huge chunk of our 3pt attempts at a >35% combined rated (which also was a big chunk of our points).

As for substitutions, she played with that this year and also seemed to back off on the press. We know from what she's said that she wants more consistent units, which she had in 24-25 but never found this year. Beyond that, I think that, with TV timeouts and replay stoppages, she might consider giving a bit more time to her top unit. However, I don't expect to see her back off on the press. I've said before, I expect when she goes through the replays of games this year, she sees over and over where it was a problem of failure to commit and execute, not a problem with the concept.

I'm sure others have better thoughts, but I'll end with this that cropped up on X this morning.

View attachment 824719

I’m curious why you think anything is going to change especially in the direction of moderation. Don’t think this is anything we have to guess about, she just told us what she’s going to do. She’s never ever backing down from full out 100% system. She’s convinced the only thing wrong with this year is that she backed out off of anything.

I’m sure she’s looking for three point shooting, she was looking for that last year. I imagine she regrets doing away with the offensive part of the system last year, which she did because she knew she didn’t find any three-point shooting.

I actually think she will find more effective three-point shooting this year, at least statistically. That’s the kind of player that probably would be willing to come here, the mid major like we see often in preseason games who can shoot threes well and shoot free throws. The problem is what we give away in the rest of that players game, and the gamble of whether those stats translate to a higher level.

I have no doubt the major priority in recruiting is utter and complete devotion to the system both by players and coaches. So I think fans will be more pleased with the effort. But very unlikely to be pleased with the results.

Next season, we will find out for sure if it’s true that effort and endurance are not separators at this level.

 

[volsagain]

Looks like (1) Kim's staying and (2) she's going to play some version of her system. I know, I know! That's like nails on a chalkboard to some posters on this forum, but that's where we are. Looking forward, the "it'll never work in the SEC" is a legitimate position to hold, but not warranting a lot of discussion at this time. What's left to say? On the other hand, there's room to talk about how the system might change and how the new team might fit make it work better than this year (yeah, a low bar).

The outline of the system at the start of this thread still seems to me a pretty fair listing of both the components and their prioritization, including making the 5-5 sub patterns the least important component. Which, since it seems to be the most-despised aspect, leads to the question of whether it might change next year?

Just based on transfer visits so far, it looks like she means to go into next year with more 3-pt shooting than she had this year. That would put her closer to 24-25 when Spear, Spencer, and Darby accounted for a huge chunk of our 3pt attempts at a >35% combined rated (which also was a big chunk of our points).

As for substitutions, she played with that this year and also seemed to back off on the press. We know from what she's said that she wants more consistent units, which she had in 24-25 but never found this year. Beyond that, I think that, with TV timeouts and replay stoppages, she might consider giving a bit more time to her top unit. However, I don't expect to see her back off on the press. I've said before, I expect when she goes through the replays of games this year, she sees over and over where it was a problem of failure to commit and execute, not a problem with the concept.

I'm sure others have better thoughts, but I'll end with this that cropped up on X this morning.

View attachment 824719

Very good observation. Hopefully she will come up with the same observations . Giving up the easy layups are a results of not playing your assignment properly it takes team work to accomplish success. That's success in any system offense or defense not just Kim's.

 

[RetroVol]

I’m curious why you think anything is going to change especially in the direction of moderation.

Reasonable question. My understanding is that she has changed the system over time, and even has said that there is flexibility in it. My read on her: extremely competitive, self-critical - even to the point of using it to motivate herself, and analytical. She noted that the analytics data they drew from 24-25 backed up some of what she had known just from observation. And I suspect deep analysis of the analytics of this year will give new insights. I don't expect to see massive changes, but I do think some evolution could be evident.

My biggest question right now: is it possible she will hire and assistant with experience with some version of the system?

 

[glv98]

Reasonable question. My understanding is that she has changed the system over time, and even has said that there is flexibility in it. My read on her: extremely competitive, self-critical - even to the point of using it to motivate herself, and analytical. She noted that the analytics data they drew from 24-25 backed up some of what she had known just from observation. And I suspect deep analysis of the analytics of this year will give new insights. I don't expect to see massive changes, but I do think some evolution could be evident.

My biggest question right now: is it possible she will hire and assistant with experience with some version of the system?

OK friend, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The tendency to not believe what anyone says anymore is pretty amazing. If CKC is anything, it’s brutally honest to a fault and incredibly set in her belief in this damn effing system. (Please credit me for not saying stubborn which you would quickly tell me was an unfair negative assessment of her mindset)

Why would. she bring in a coach with a ‘version’ of her system when she just told us after the worst season of her career that she knew rolling back any part of the system was wrong and she pledged never to do it again. Why can’t we take her at her word?

I don’t think they’ll be any evolution nor version unless forced by injury or attrition. After all the drama and losing her whole team over it,she would look totally ridiculous if she backed off on it now.

 

[volfan102455]

So if we believe any of the stories that were told of this season - she incorporated changes this year because the players suggested or asked for changes. She will not do that next year.

That implies she needs players that will not question the system nor make suggestions if the season starts to tank. The just do it and don't argue with me about it mentality. That is both good and bad - good in that it will be very clear as to where the system breaks and where it doesn't. Bad in terms of it could be just a simple adjustment that could be the difference between a win or two.

I go back to something that was said about UCLA. The coach listened to the players and considered their recommendations and actually incorporated them which made the team better. And they just easily won the NCAA title game.

The best teams, in any context of a team, is one that has a leader with a good vision, but also a leader that will listen to the people who are attempting to follow that vision when it isn't working.

 

[volfan102455]

OK friend, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The tendency to not believe what anyone says anymore is pretty amazing. If CKC is anything, it’s brutally honest to a fault and incredibly set in her belief in this damn effing system. (Please credit me for not saying stubborn which you would quickly tell me was an unfair negative assessment of her mindset)

Why would. she bring in a coach with a ‘version’ of her system when she just told us after the worst season of her career that she knew rolling back any part of the system was wrong and she pledged never to do it again. Why can’t we take her at her word?

I don’t think they’ll be any evolution nor version unless forced by injury or attrition. After all the drama and losing her whole team over it,she would look totally ridiculous if she backed off on it now.

I think it is going to take a season of all those on the team doing what CKC says, no questions asked, for CKC to realize she must adapt to compete at the D1 level.

Her backing down from her system is not why the teams lost those games. They were going to get beat anyway because it wasn't working against the top teams.

Sometimes you have to let a person fail.

 

[glv98]

Very good observation. Hopefully she will come up with the same observations . Giving up the easy layups are a results of not playing your assignment properly it takes team work to accomplish success. That's success in any system offense or defense not just Kim's.

According to those who have studied why the system is not more widely used, giving up easy layups is more a result of much better ball handling by elite guards and much better press break design by elite coaches. We always seem to minimize our opponents role in all of this.

IMO the exact flaw of the system is thinking effort, endurance, and execution on our part can overcome superior elite skills on opponents parts. No matter how much gut wrenching effort we trap with, Raven Johnson is going to pass out of that trap in a press break designed by Dawn Staley for an easy layup 90% of the time.

And next year, this will totally be proven one way or another

 

[glv98]

So if we believe any of the stories that were told of this season - she incorporated changes this year because the players suggested or asked for changes. She will not do that next year.

That implies she needs players that will not question the system nor make suggestions if the season starts to tank. The just do it and don't argue with me about it mentality. That is both good and bad - good in that it will be very clear as to where the system breaks and where it doesn't. Bad in terms of it could be just a simple adjustment that could be the difference between a win or two.

I go back to something that was said about UCLA. The coach listened to the players and considered their recommendations and actually incorporated them which made the team better. And they just easily won the NCAA title game.

The best teams, in any context of a team, is one that has a leader with a good vision, but also a leader that will listen to the people who are attempting to follow that vision when it isn't working.

Oh, I think incoming players and coaches will absolutely sign a blood oath to be 24/7 system without question totally obedient. be crazy not to do that.

I also agree what happened this year was after UCLA and Louisville the players know full well it wasn’t going to work and went to the assistants they trusted for help and it all unraveled from there. She did agree to roll some things back, but the problem was, she had nothing to replace it with since she thinks having any Plan B is a sign of weakness. So since the rollback didn’t work either, Kim became convinced that a return to total system immersion was the cure and that those who pushed for it had betrayed her.

Next year will totally tell the tale.

 

[lvocd]

Next year will totally tell the tale.

Yep. It's her SOGOTP year. (Sh!t Or Get Off The Pot)

I think we can safely assume Kim has promised DW that she will not make the mistakes again, which means she will be much more careful to only hire staff and only sign players who are guaranteed to be 100% on board with her system, because she will prove to the world that that's the only reason this season imploded.

 

[glv98]

Yep. It's her SOGOTP year. (Sh!t Or Get Off The Pot)

I think we can safely assume Kim has promised DW that she will not make the mistakes again, which means she will be much more careful to only hire staff and only sign players who are guaranteed to be 100% on board with her system, because she will prove to the world that that's the only reason this season imploded.

And actually, because it is exactly what he hired her to do come hell or high water, she deserves that chance

But if y’all thought this year was painful . . .

 

[volsagain]

According to those who have studied why the system is not more widely used, giving up easy layups is more a result of much better ball handling by elite guards and much better press break design by elite coaches. We always seem to minimize our opponents role in all of this.

IMO the exact flaw of the system is thinking effort, endurance, and execution on our part can overcome superior elite skills on opponents parts. No matter how much gut wrenching effort we trap with, Raven Johnson is going to pass out of that trap in a press break designed by Dawn Staley for an easy layup 90% of the time.

And next year, this will totally be proven one way or another

I do agree you can't use a trapping press against everyone not just because it's getting broken easily but the fact it wears you down. Using a token press can slow a team down and let you see how there setting up then you can defend it better with the right coaching adjustments . I know I know she doesn't make adjustments but she does. I biggest problem and I think her biggest problem is the massive subs . You just got to have 2 or 3 of your best players on the court at all times. Just like the other teams they have plenty of breaks in the game to get rest. I've seen how effective a press can be when executed properly and your not going have 10-12 players at the same level of ability to execute especially 12 new players.

 

[volfan102455]

According to those who have studied why the system is not more widely used, giving up easy layups is more a result of much better ball handling by elite guards and much better press break design by elite coaches. We always seem to minimize our opponents role in all of this.

IMO the exact flaw of the system is thinking effort, endurance, and execution on our part can overcome superior elite skills on opponents parts. No matter how much gut wrenching effort we trap with, Raven Johnson is going to pass out of that trap in a press break designed by Dawn Staley for an easy layup 90% of the time.

And next year, this will totally be proven one way or another

Folks and especially CKC seems to minimize the opponent's ability to impact the game. The thought is that you wear them down, have more shots, make more threes and that 'effort' is the difference.

The system that her system is a spin off from actually says giving up layups is okay - because the result is you get the ball back quicker to take another shot. But if you are missing those shots or the other team is keeping pace with you or the other team goes to a zone or some other defense to make you change - it works against you.

The major issue with CKC is that she absolutely does not factor in what the opponent is doing to counter the system. She just expects to wear them down (i.e. play harder not smarter) and be able to make up the difference with all the 'extra' shots they will have.

And every good team that saw this once was ready the second time with a plan on how to beat the system with "smarter basketball".

 

[volfan102455]

I expect next year to be very painful to watch - if we get adequate players we will see wins early only to see the sky fall when we get to the SEC games. If we don't get adequate players and are fielding a team of mid-majors against mid-majors - it could get ugly fast.