The Golf Thread

[peaygolf]

I took out my old Toney Pena persimmon driver out the other day and hit a couple tee shots with it with Titleist Balata 90's. Then hit a couple with my M3 with the TM TP5x balls.


Let's just say that a 445 yrd par four went from Driver/4 iron to Driver/easy 8. 50 yrds.

 

[1972 Grad]

I took out my old Toney Pena persimmon driver out the other day and hit a couple tee shots with it with Titleist Balata 90's. Then hit a couple with my M3 with the TM TP5x balls.


Let's just say that a 445 yrd par four went from Driver/4 iron to Driver/easy 8. 50 yrds.

An old 4 iron or a modern 4 iron? The new ones are at least a club longer, maybe club and a half, due to loft, length, and thinner faces. The old 4 iron was probably 37.5 inches long, and had 25 degrees loft. A new one could be close to 39 inches and have 21 degrees loft. It may take an old 2 iron to get there with the balata ball.

I also think that the newer equipment benefits the really high swing speed players to a greater degree than the average swing speed players. In other words, the people like D.J. and Rory will outdrive us mortals by more yards with new stuff than with old stuff.

When I was in my mid-30's I sold a car to Bruce Lietzke, and he stuck around and played golf with me. He was one of the leaders in driving distance/accuracy at the time. He outdrove me about 30-35 yards in the mid-1980's. I would be way farther behind a touring pro today if I was 35 , and so were they, with today's ball and clubs. I was an average driver for a 3 handicap in those days.

 

[peaygolf]

An old 4 iron or a modern 4 iron? The new ones are at least a club longer, maybe club and a half, due to loft, length, and thinner faces. The old 4 iron was probably 37.5 inches long, and had 25 degrees loft. A new one could be close to 39 inches and have 21 degrees loft. It may take an old 2 iron to get there with the balata ball.

I also think that the newer equipment benefits the really high swing speed players to a greater degree than the average swing speed players. In other words, the people like D.J. and Rory will outdrive us mortals by more yards with new stuff than with old stuff.

When I was in my mid-30's I sold a car to Bruce Lietzke, and he stuck around and played golf with me. He was one of the leaders in driving distance/accuracy at the time. He outdrove me about 30-35 yards in the mid-1980's. I would be way farther behind a touring pro today if I was 35 , and so were they, with today's ball and clubs. I was an average driver for a 3 handicap in those days.

good point. I used my P750 4 iron, not my old eye 2.

 

[GAVol]

I took out my old Toney Pena persimmon driver out the other day and hit a couple tee shots with it with Titleist Balata 90's. Then hit a couple with my M3 with the TM TP5x balls.


Let's just say that a 445 yrd par four went from Driver/4 iron to Driver/easy 8. 50 yrds.

It really is amazing what has happened in the last 30 years. I was playing Junior golf at the tail end of the persimmon era and vividly remember when hitting one 240 meant I had bombed it. Now 240 means I'm on the range after the round with the wrench out figuring out whats wrong.

 

[GAVol]

good point. I used my P750 4 iron, not my old eye 2.

I think I could pick up a set of Eye 2s or Tommy Armor 845s and play right now. I loved those clubs.

I actually took a Vokey out of my bag a couple of months ago and put my old Eye 2 SW back in. I'm lethal from the fairway with that thing.

 

[1972 Grad]

good point. I used my P750 4 iron, not my old eye 2.

P750 4 iron is 23 degrees, 38.25 inches. When I started playing in 1964, I think that a 4 iron was 28 degrees. That became a 5 iron in the 1970's.

I have read that Ben Hogan's 7 iron distance was around 135 yards, maybe 140. That 7 iron was probably 40 degrees then. A driver and a 7 iron would go about 400 yards for a tour pro in the 1950's, early 60's. You can see why a 450 yard par 4 , and a 7000+ yard golf course like Firestone would be a handful in 1966.

 

[1972 Grad]

I took out my old Toney Pena persimmon driver out the other day and hit a couple tee shots with it with Titleist Balata 90's. Then hit a couple with my M3 with the TM TP5x balls.


Let's just say that a 445 yrd par four went from Driver/4 iron to Driver/easy 8. 50 yrds.

I still have a Tony Penna persimmon driver, 3 & 5 wood that I bought from a golf pro shop in Ft. Walton Beach 35- 40 years ago. That was the first and only location of a new mail order golf shop named Edwin Watts.

 

[JFreak]

I think you also have to give credit to the player's physical development as well. The Hogans, Arnies, and Jacks probably couldn't touch the swing speed of DJ, JT, or Rahm even with modern equipment and in their prime. The focus on core strength, lower body strength, and overall flexibility all combined with a solid diet has definitely helped.

 

[1972 Grad]

I think I could pick up a set of Eye 2s or Tommy Armor 845s and play right now. I loved those clubs.

I actually took a Vokey out of my bag a couple of months ago and put my old Eye 2 SW back in. I'm lethal from the fairway with that thing.

I still have an Eye 2+ lob wedge. It has an unusual looking sole and bounce angle.

 

[GAVol]

I think you also have to give credit to the player's physical development as well. The Hogans, Arnies, and Jacks probably couldn't touch the swing speed of DJ, JT, or Rahm even with modern equipment and in their prime. The focus on core strength, lower body strength, and overall flexibility all combined with a solid diet has definitely helped.

That's true for the tour as a whole, but twentysomething Jack Nicklaus was a freak of nature. If he'd had a modern driver and a hot ball, it would've been scary how far he hit it.

 

[1972 Grad]

I think you also have to give credit to the player's physical development as well. The Hogans, Arnies, and Jacks probably couldn't touch the swing speed of DJ, JT, or Rahm even with modern equipment and in their prime. The focus on core strength, lower body strength, and overall flexibility all combined with a solid diet has definitely helped.

I said earlier that they were more athletic. Another factor that one may overlook is that the old persimmon woods and balata balls put a bunch of spin on the ball, and the players HAD to swing with more control, or they would never find their ball. It was far easier to hit it off the planet back in those days.

 

[GAVol]

I still have an Eye 2+ lob wedge. It has an unusual looking sole and bounce angle.

I bought an Eye 2 LW a couple of years ago to play around with, but never could get comfortable around the green with it. It was great from the fairway but felt really clunky compared to a Vokey inside 50 yards.

 

[1972 Grad]

That's true for the tour as a whole, but twentysomething Jack Nicklaus was a freak of nature. If he'd had a modern driver and a hot ball, it would've been scary how far he hit it.

Look up the PGA long drive contest from 1963. Nicklaus won the first of his 2 consecutive long drive championships, staged annually at the PGA Championship. Persimmon driver, wound ball, 341 yards and 17 inches.

I followed Jack and Arnie paired together the last 2 days at the 67 U.S. Open . Palmer was a great driver of the . Nicklaus consistently hit it 30-35 yards by him. Jack's ball flight was about twice as high as Arnie's, and everything started down the left side and faded. Arnie was just the opposite, with everything a draw.

 

[JFreak]

That's true for the tour as a whole, but twentysomething Jack Nicklaus was a freak of nature. If he'd had a modern driver and a hot ball, it would've been scary how far he hit it.

It would be awesome to see that's for damn sure. My humble opinion is that Jack would be getting smoked off the tee by most modern players with all things being equal.

I said earlier that they were more athletic. Another factor that one may overlook is that the old persimmon woods and balata balls put a bunch of spin on the ball, and the players HAD to swing with more control, or they would never find their ball. It was far easier to hit it off the planet back in those days.

This is a good point. Would love to see a standardized ball on tour one day anyways. Was watching guys like Molinari bomb them 360+ at Firestone yesterday. That's out of hand.

 

[GAVol]

I said earlier that they were more athletic. Another factor that one may overlook is that the old persimmon woods and balata balls put a bunch of spin on the ball, and the players HAD to swing with more control, or they would never find their ball. It was far easier to hit it off the planet back in those days.

The ball spinning less has completely changed course management. I used to hit a lot of long irons and 3 woods off the tee. Now everybody just reached for the Driver because it's as straight A's anything else.

Also used to give up yardage when you hit a cut with a driver to keep it in play. Now, that's called a "power fade" because it goes just as far.

 

[volfanbill]

Club technology has come a long way, but the ball is crazy hot now, with different models to give you crazy spin, little to no spin, lots of bounce, little bounce, etc. I also think course management goes a long way. Pros today are playing on courses that are pristine. Minus a US Open of course.

 

[peaygolf]

There was an article on golfwrx.com a while back that showed player from today using equipment from the early/mid 80's. It was shocking to see how "far" they hit it.
It still amazes me that I ever shot under par with persimmon and balata balls.

 

[kiddiedoc]

You may find rain.

Rain washed out the round at Burlingame, but we were able to play Sequoyah, Maggie Valley Club, and Laurel Ridge. Those tight mountain courses play tough for we occasional/recreational golfers! It was awfully nice having high temps in the mid-70s, and the views were awesome.

 

[1972 Grad]

Rain washed out the round at Burlingame, but we were able to play Sequoyah, Maggie Valley Club, and Laurel Ridge. Those tight mountain courses play tough for we occasional/recreational golfers! It was awfully nice having high temps in the mid-70s, and the views were awesome.

I'm over here in the Northwest N.C. mountains now, and it's 73 degrees. Supposed to dip into the high 50's at night on the weekend.

I remember playing Maggie Valley one time about 30 years ago. I drove a par 4 (#17 ?) and 3 putted for my par. It was downhill with a slight dogleg left. This was in the days of wound balls and persimmon woods. I don't remember the length, but it must not have been terribly long.

 

[Rishvol]

Rain washed out the round at Burlingame, but we were able to play Sequoyah, Maggie Valley Club, and Laurel Ridge. Those tight mountain courses play tough for we occasional/recreational golfers! It was awfully nice having high temps in the mid-70s, and the views were awesome.

Played Laurel Ridge last year. Beautiful course... Lost a lot of golf balls but beautiful course

 

[1972 Grad]

I took out my old Toney Pena persimmon driver out the other day and hit a couple tee shots with it with Titleist Balata 90's. Then hit a couple with my M3 with the TM TP5x balls.


Let's just say that a 445 yrd par four went from Driver/4 iron to Driver/easy 8. 50 yrds.

Justin Thomas had 76 yards left to the 470 yard par 4 18th at Firestone after a 394 yard drive Sunday. Finau and either McIlroy or D.J. had 77 yards. They had just a half swing pitch left. It is downhill, and was playing firm.

In 1966 when I went to the PGA there, it played 465, and I saw a bunch of long irons hit into that hole, and an occasional fairway wood. I'm not sure that anyone was within 100 yards of J.T.'s drive Sunday.

 

[kiddiedoc]

Played Laurel Ridge last year. Beautiful course... Lost a lot of golf balls but beautiful course

Yeah, I contributed quite a few to the woods, as well! There are a bunch of really tough tee shots over there.

 

[05_never_again]

Justin Thomas had 76 yards left to the 470 yard par 4 18th at Firestone after a 394 yard drive Sunday. Finau and either McIlroy or D.J. had 77 yards. They had just a half swing pitch left. It is downhill, and was playing firm.

In 1966 when I went to the PGA there, it played 465, and I saw a bunch of long irons hit into that hole, and an occasional fairway wood. I'm not sure that anyone was within 100 yards of J.T.'s drive Sunday.

It is mind boggling how far guys like Thomas, McIlroy, and Fowler can hit a golf ball. Not just the raw distance itself, but how they launch and fly the ball. McIlroy and Fowler in particular are well-built guys, but pretty short. Tiny waists. It's all about that flexibility.

It's nuts how far DJ can hit it too, but the dude also looks like he could be a stand-up pass rushing defensive end in a 3-4 defense. He is not built like a typical golfer.

 

[1972 Grad]

It is mind boggling how far guys like Thomas, McIlroy, and Fowler can hit a golf ball. Not just the raw distance itself, but how they launch and fly the ball. McIlroy and Fowler in particular are well-built guys, but pretty short. Tiny waists. It's all about that flexibility.

It's nuts how far DJ can hit it too, but the dude also looks like he could be a stand-up pass rushing defensive end in a 3-4 defense. He is not built like a typical golfer.

A significant portion of the distance increase is the optimization of launch and spin. Part of it is the increase in the coefficient of restitution of the face of the driver. Part of it is the dimple patterns and material and construction of the ball. It no longer has a liquid center surrounded by rubber bands, and a balata cover.

Part of it is agronomy with different kinds of grass that are kept short with firm fairways. Part of it is the lack of spin on the ball, and the size and forgiveness of the driver head, allowing the player to swing harder without fear of hitting it off the planet. And, part of it is player fitness, and knowing what exercises are needed to increase clubhead speed.

I believe that the coefficient of restitution (c.o.r.) was about .77 for the old persimmon woods, and .78 for early metal woods. The max c.o.r. is set at .822 with a .008 overage allowed, making it .830. For each one hundredth increase in c.o.r., there is a 4 yard increase in distance for a 100 mph swing speed. So, you are looking at a 25 yard increase for the clubhead for a 100 mph swing speed. Since some swing at 125 or so, you now have a 30 yard increase from any driver today versus a wood head.

 

[Rishvol]

What's getting me is seeing these guys hit a crappy tee shot and end up in some pretty thick stuff. Then hit it on the green 200+ yards away from that position