The Foreign Trade Thread

#401
#401
n_huffhines said:
You either have no idea what you're talking about or you have no cred. Read up on how much the government is giving Foxconn per job, and now factor in we have to bring immigrants in to fill these jobs. Trump and Wisconsin got pwned

#132 Negative Mount Pleasant by Reply All

Trade imbalances are not bad. It means we are wealthier than them. Want to end the imbalance? Make us poorer. It's that simple
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$5B is cheap to incubate an entire industry in that area. It's mostly in the form of tax breaks. The built up infrastructure won't exclusively benefit Foxconn. There's a multiplier effect to factor in as well. There will be many more jobs created in the industries supporting the growth. And suppliers will sprout up as well.

Funny how you discount such a massive trade imbalance. You have no problem at all that the US has the largest trade deficit in history and think it's no big deal.
 
#402
#402
Thunder Good-Oil said:
$5B is cheap to incubate an entire industry in that area. It's mostly in the form of tax breaks. The built up infrastructure won't exclusively benefit Foxconn. There's a multiplier effect to factor in as well. There will be many more jobs created in the industries supporting the growth. And suppliers will sprout up as well.

Funny how you discount such a massive trade imbalance. You have no problem at all that the US has the largest trade deficit in history and think it's no big deal.
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Trade deficits are offset by capital surpluses. Do you even know this, or is this news to you?

1,000 acres of farmland, eminent domain, and $4.5B in tax breaks and subsidies, and again, they need to bring in immigrants to fill these jobs. This is a boondoggle. You will see. It's such a great deal, the city officials had to keep everything a secret from the people.

the Foxconn deal is the largest such subsidy in Wisconsin history. Even if all 13,000 promised jobs went to Wisconsinites, the tab would be more than $230,000 per job created.
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Scott Walker's Foxconn Boondoggle Is Now Subsidizing Imported Chinese Workers
 
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#403
#403
n_huffhines said:
Trade deficits are offset by capital surpluses. Do you even know this, or is this news to you?

1,000 acres of farmland, eminent domain, and $4.5B in tax breaks and subsidies, and again, they need to bring in immigrants to fill these jobs. This is a boondoggle. You will see. It's such a great deal, the city officials had to keep everything a secret from the people.



Scott Walker's Foxconn Boondoggle Is Now Subsidizing Imported Chinese Workers
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You're ignoring big pieces with the $200,000+ per job rhetoric. The $5B investment (again, mostly tax incentives) creates long lasting infrastructure. Also being ignored in the $200,000+ estimate is that much of the $5B is going to be offset with new revenue in property, income, and sales taxes. Also, the incentives are being spread out over 10+ years. It's also just factoring in Foxconn jobs. An entire supply chain will develop as well as other supporting businesses... all creating jobs and tax revenue.

It's a bold investment. Better than doing nothing while the upper Midwest rusts away.
 
#404
#404
Thunder Good-Oil said:
You're ignoring big pieces with the $200,000+ per job rhetoric. The $5B investment (again, mostly tax incentives) creates long lasting infrastructure. Also being ignored in the $200,000+ estimate is that much of the $5B is going to be offset with new revenue in property, income, and sales taxes. Also, the incentives are being spread out over 10+ years. It's also just factoring in Foxconn jobs. An entire supply chain will develop as well as other supporting businesses... all creating jobs and tax revenue.

It's a bold investment. Better than doing nothing while the upper Midwest rusts away.
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The podcast I linked to claims it'll likely take 30 years for us to get our overall investment back and the factory will likely be shut down by then. In the tech industry, it's extremely costly to repurpose a factory. In many cases, it makes sense to build a new one. They used the example of OLED and LED TV's, and you can't use an LED factory to produce OLED. With how fast tech is moving, Foxconn will be out of there in 10-20 years, or hitting us up for new subsidies.
 
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#405
#405
n_huffhines said:
The podcast I linked to claims it'll likely take 30 years for us to get our overall investment back and the factory will likely be shut down by then. In the tech industry, it's extremely costly to change the purpose of a factory. You might as well build a new one. They used the example of OLED and LED TV's, and you can't use an LED factory to produce OLED. With how fast tech is moving, Foxconn will be out of there in 10-20 years, or hitting us up for new subsidies.
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Talk about myopic. The only return being considered is the direct Foxconn jobs. They're expecting to draw many more companies.
 
#406
#406
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Talk about myopic. The only return being considered is the direct Foxconn jobs. They're expecting to draw many more companies.
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Like? What kind of goodies are they gonna hold us over a barrel to get?

The supply chain already exists. Whether it comes from a port or from Wisconsin, there is a supply chain. This deal does not create more supply chains, it just changes the structure of them.
 
#410
#410
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Wisconsin also has an income tax on the wages. Is that being factored into the rhetoric from the resistance?
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Wow, this is desperation right here ^

If all 13,000 earning $50k pay standard deduction, that's $138M. Sounds like a decent amount, right? Well, it's not, because you have to think like an economist and factor in the opportunity cost. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say these people would otherwise be earning only $40k with whatever job they would work instead of Foxconn....that's $103M.

So $35M in extra state and federal tax revenue. That's 0.8% of $4.5B.
 
#411
#411
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Great idea. Create massive Chinese owned debt in exchange for a bunch of cheap crap that will be in our landfills after a couple of years.
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It's not US debt. We give them real dollars (or a business may buy on credit) and the Chinese invest the $ in our economy. Apparently you still don't understand capital surpluses.
 
#413
#413
n_huffhines said:
Wow, this is desperation right here ^

If all 13,000 earning $50k pay standard deduction, that's $138M. Sounds like a decent amount, right? Well, it's not, because you have to think like an economist and factor in the opportunity cost. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say these people would otherwise be earning only $40k with whatever job they would work instead of Foxconn....that's $103M.

So $35M in extra state and federal tax revenue. That's 0.8% of $4.5B.
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That's income tax in addition to the sales and property taxes mentioned in the previous post. You're also assuming in your calculation that the only marginal personal income is restricted to 13,000 Foxconn jobs.
 
#414
#414
Thunder Good-Oil said:
That's income tax in addition to the sales and property taxes mentioned in the previous post. You're also assuming in your calculation that the only marginal personal income is restricted to 13,000 Foxconn jobs.
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OK, factor that stuff in. Did we get our money back yet? Did it justify the use of eminent domain?

Again, if it's such a good deal, why was it so secretive?
 
#415
#415
n_huffhines said:
OK, factor that stuff in. Did we get our money back yet? Did it justify the use of eminent domain?

Again, if it's such a good deal, why was it so secretive?
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That's pretty much the purpose of having eminent domain. Plus it's in a lightly populated area... not that many people are adversely effected relative the many that will benefit.

Why are you arguing Wisconsin's industrial incentives in a foreign trade thread?
 
#416
#416
Thunder Good-Oil said:
That's pretty much the purpose of having eminent domain. Plus it's in a lightly populated area... not that many people are adversely effected relative the many that will benefit.

Why are you arguing Wisconsin's industrial incentives in a foreign trade thread?
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Because there are two points that are the crux of opposition to a trade war:

- it hurts Americans as long as it's a thing
- even if we "win", we have corrupt idiots running this country, so how do we know they will use their negotiating power to create good deals?

Do you know what the law of unintended consequences is? Do you realize that the more complicated a matter is, the more unintended consequences become a risk. So you believe Washington DC, who does almost nothing right, is going to magically centrally plan us into the future with tech/trade policy under Trump leadership...Trump can't even find a chief of staff.

Foxconn is a bad deal and it is a Trump deal. You have an inordinate amount of faith in the government.
 
#417
#417
n_huffhines said:
Because there are two points that are the crux of opposition to a trade war:

- it hurts Americans as long as it's a thing
- even if we "win", we have corrupt idiots running this country, so how do we know they will use their negotiating power to create good deals?

Do you know what the law of unintended consequences is? Do you realize that the more complicated a matter is, the more unintended consequences become a risk. So you believe Washington DC, who does almost nothing right, is going to magically centrally plan us into the future with tech/trade policy under Trump leadership...Trump can't even find a chief of staff.

Foxconn is a bad deal and it is a Trump deal. You have an inordinate amount of faith in the government.
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Foxconn is a Wisconsin deal. Trump is there for a photo opp with the governor.

Trump's trade goal is fair and reciprocal. He has to play hardball with the PRC. They've been conditioned to think our POTUS will bow before them. That was the last guy.

There are consequences of a half trillion dollar trade imbalance with a nefarious player.
 
#418
#418
Thunder Good-Oil said:
They've been conditioned to think our POTUS will bow before them. That was the last guy.
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I can't wait for the China/US agreement in which we return things to they way they were before Trump's tariff feud and the redhats will all marvel in the ability of their leader to make a deal.
 
#419
#419
n_huffhines said:
You either have no idea what you're talking about or you have no cred. Read up on how much the government is giving Foxconn per job, and now factor in we have to bring immigrants in to fill these jobs. Trump and Wisconsin got pwned

#132 Negative Mount Pleasant by Reply All

Trade imbalances are not bad. It means we are wealthier than them. Want to end the imbalance? Make us poorer. It's that simple
Click to expand...
Socialism
 
#420
#420
Velo Vol said:
I can't wait for the China/US agreement in which we return things to they way they were before Trump's tariff feud and the redhats will all marvel in the ability of their leader to make a deal.
Click to expand...

Here's what our administration demanded back in May from the PRC. The more recent tariffs are likely just a bit of encouragement to hurry up.

China will unilaterally increase its imports of U.S. goods by at least $100 billion.

China will immediately cease protections and subsidies for any sectors related to its Made in China 2025 central economic plan, as well as eliminate tariff and non-tariff barriers on those sectors.

China will accept that it is a non-market economy under WTO rules (which would allow the United States to apply protective tariffs against Chinese exports).

China will accept American restrictions on Chinese investment-led acquisitions in the United States.

China will cease all technological/cyber theft as well as cease any and all policies which aim to force American firms to share technologies with China.

China will accept American quarterly reviews on all trade policies, and pre-commit to cooperation with American findings.

China will submit rosters of goods shipped to third countries so that China may not do end-runs around American import restrictions.

China will abandon all WTO cases it has prosecuted against the United States as regards any of the above issues and preemptively agree to launch no new ones.
 
#422
#422
Not about trade, but this is kind of an economic thread, and I don't feel like starting another thread over this story.

Cosmetologists

 
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