TA&M and Jimbo

#76

GVF

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#76
It's definitely an institutional thing. LSU has a recruiting base and an admin that lends itself having a successful football program regardless of who the coach is, IMO.

I don't think many LSU fans would admit this, but the reason they fired Miles and Orgeron is because they think they should be Alabama under Saban. They don't think they should ever go 8-5/9-3, because Saban never goes 8-5/9-3. It is why O instantly got on the hot seat just a year after going 15-0 with a title. They don't think they should ever have a year like that, and when he followed it up with another .500 year he was instantly fired.
LSU probably shouldn't go 9-3 but once in a blue moon. And certainly not 8-5. Bama should be the only thorn in the side. Occasionally they will get burned by AU or FL. To be expected. But, not the norm. My point was that the Admin at LSU is looney, even by UT standards of the past decade or so. For any school to hold the 2020 season against any coach is foolish. So, to me only one bad season. IMO, Orgeron had to go anyway. He had some oncoming issues that were going to put the school in some stress. His antics and lifestyle after the divorce was spilling over into the job. And in retrospect, Miles had some potential issues in that arena as well that were never proofed out.
 
#77

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#77
If you want to claim that 2014-16 Les underachieved, I can agree with that, but any notion that he underachieved over the balance of his time there is just nuts. Les's tenure at LSU only looks bad when compared to Saban at Alabama (which is what many people compare it to for some reason).

Simply put, Saban just makes everybody else look bad, and he tricks other schools into thinking that what he's doing at Alabama is easily replicated at other schools by other coaches. It isn't.
No. I always thought Les was a very good coach, and totally undermined on his ouster. He may have needed to find the right OC and move into the new world, but I was a Les fan. Just as much as I was a Richt fan. Didn't favor UGA's decision on him either. Richt proved you can win with integrity as a coach. He's a good man. It's sad the direction his health has gone, and was no doubt the cause of his decline as a coach on the field his last few years.

UGA has their savior now though. Same amount of SEC's and NT's as Richt....?
 
#78

05_never_again

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#78
LSU probably shouldn't go 9-3 but once in a blue moon. And certainly not 8-5. Bama should be the only thorn in the side. Occasionally they will get burned by AU or FL. To be expected. But, not the norm. My point was that the Admin at LSU is looney, even by UT standards of the past decade or so. For any school to hold the 2020 season against any coach is foolish. So, to me only one bad season. IMO, Orgeron had to go anyway. He had some oncoming issues that were going to put the school in some stress. His antics and lifestyle after the divorce was spilling over into the job. And in retrospect, Miles had some potential issues in that arena as well that were never proofed out.
O wasn't fired for the off-field stuff though. If he's still in the mix for SEC titles or CFP appearances, he could have been living like King Solomon with 700 wives and 300 concubines and they wouldn't care. His lifestyle was only an issue because he was a .500 coach after the title.

There are legitimate instances where LSU could go 8-5/9-3 for like a single season, 2 seasons tops. LSU has to play Alabama, Auburn, A&M, and Florida every year; there are going to be years where more than one of those teams is really good and you drop some of those games. Ole Miss is occasionally pretty good. However periods like that should not persist for multiple years, and they did towards the end of Les, and that's why he was fired.
 
#80

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#80
That 2007 title Miles won had a roster of a lot players he had recruited as well, and don't forget he played for another title that he almost certainly would have won in 2011 if he didn't have to play Saban again. "Couldn't sustain it" is kind of harsh, wouldn't you agree?
Harsh no, the talent level in the state of Louisiana produces enough to sustain championship levels or compete for championships on a regular basis. He won a title, that team had talent but even then he lost 2 games. Sometimes timing is everything and for Miles, it was timing more than his ability to Coach.
 
#81

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#81
No. I always thought Les was a very good coach, and totally undermined on his ouster. He may have needed to find the right OC and move into the new world, but I was a Les fan. Just as much as I was a Richt fan. Didn't favor UGA's decision on him either. Richt proved you can win with integrity as a coach. He's a good man. It's sad the direction his health has gone, and was no doubt the cause of his decline as a coach on the field his last few years.

UGA has their savior now though. Same amount of SEC's and NT's as Richt....?
Richt actually had one more SEC title through his first 6 years than Kirby has. Kirby has been to the SECCG 4 times in 6 seasons (once more than Richt through his first 6 seasons), but Richt won the SEC twice. Kirby is measurably better in conference play (40-9 vs. Richt's 34-14).
 
#83

05_never_again

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#83
Harsh no, the talent level in the state of Louisiana produces enough to sustain championship levels or compete for championships on a regular basis. He won a title, that team had talent but even then he lost 2 games. Sometimes timing is everything and for Miles, it was timing more than his ability to Coach.
Define "regular basis." Since Saban left, LSU has played for or won the SEC in 2005, 2007, 2011, and 2019. Les was responsible for 3 of those, so I'd say he did it on a regular basis.

They are the most successful football program this century not named Alabama, and they've done it while sharing a division with Alabama.
 
#84

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#84
Define "regular basis." Since Saban left, LSU has played for or won the SEC in 2005, 2007, 2011, and 2019. Les was responsible for 3 of those, so I'd say he did it on a regular basis.

They are the most successful football program this century not named Alabama, and they've done it while sharing a division with Alabama.
And the only one in that division to have done it in Saban years IIRC
 
#85

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#85
Richt actually had one more SEC title through his first 6 years than Kirby has. Kirby has been to the SECCG 4 times in 6 seasons (once more than Richt through his first 6 seasons), but Richt won the SEC twice. Kirby is measurably better in conference play (40-9 vs. Richt's 34-14).
Technically, yes. But, a 5 game swing is fairly equal. And Kirby coughs up THE game just as well each year. Maybe that's just a UGA thing though regardless of coach.
 
#86

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#86
Define "regular basis." Since Saban left, LSU has played for or won the SEC in 2005, 2007, 2011, and 2019. Les was responsible for 3 of those, so I'd say he did it on a regular basis.

They are the most successful football program this century not named Alabama, and they've done it while sharing a division with Alabama.
Fair on 2011, we can view 2005 and 2007 differently as those teams were recruited by Saban . Out of 14 years he had one start to finish with none of Sabans top ranked recruiting classes on his roster and a one achieved SEC title to show on his own. Not sure we view regular basis the same.
 
#87

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#87
Fair on 2011, we can view 2005 and 2007 differently as those teams were recruited by Saban . Out of 14 years he had one start to finish with none of Sabans top ranked recruiting classes on his roster and a one achieved SEC title to show on his own. Not sure we view regular basis the same.
I think you are too quick to dismiss 2005 and 2007. Yes, Saban recruited very well at LSU and Miles inherited those players. It isn't like Miles didn't recruit well on his own too. Everybody recruits well at LSU. Miles beat Saban in the regular season, won the SECCG, and made it back to a title game in 2011 and he didn't have any of Saban's players then.

Les was able to sustain the momentum Saban had created; Miles played for the SEC 3x, won the SEC 2x, played for a national title 2x, and won a national title in the 7 seasons after Saban left. It's only "unimpressive" or "underachieving" relative to what Saban has done at Alabama. He pretty regularly had a very good team until his last couple years.

As dumb and as lucky as he was, his run to the title in 2011 was the season where I started to think "I still don't think he's a great coach, but he's obviously doing something right other than having followed Saban." There's no doubt in my mind Miles would have won his second title that year if he didn't have to face Saban, who he had already beaten during the regular season, again in the BCSNCG.
 
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#88

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I think you are too quick to dismiss 2005 and 2007. Yes, Saban recruited very well at LSU and Miles inherited those players. It isn't like Miles didn't recruit well on his own too. Everybody recruits well at LSU. Miles beat Saban in the regular season, won the SECCG, and made it back to a title game in 2011 and he didn't have any of Saban's players then.

Les was able to sustain the momentum Saban had created; Miles played for the SEC 3x, won the SEC 2x, played for a national title 2x, and won a national title in the 7 seasons after Saban left. It's only "unimpressive" or "underachieving" relative to what Saban has done at Alabama. He pretty regularly had a very good team until his last couple years.

As dumb and as lucky as he was, his run to the title in 2011 was the season where I started to think "I still don't think he's a great coach, but he's obviously doing something right other than having followed Saban." There's no doubt in my mind Miles would have won his second title that year if he didn't have to face Saban, who he had already beaten during the regular season, again in the BCSNCG.
His average recruiting rank #8 by Rivals from 2006-2015. Too many seasons with 3-5 losses on his resume for me to validate him as successful with the talent he had.

In 2007, after beating us it took #2 WVU losing to Pitt and #1 Missouri losing to #9 Oklahoma for LSU who was #7 in the BCS to jump up to #2.
 
#89

05_never_again

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#89
His average recruiting rank #8 by Rivals from 2006-2015. Too many seasons with 3-5 losses on his resume for me to validate him as successful with the talent he had.

In 2007, after beating us it took #2 WVU losing to Pitt and #1 Missouri losing to #9 Oklahoma for LSU who was #7 in the BCS to jump up to #2.
Don't you have to factor in what his peaks were too? From 2005-2015, his valley was 8-5 (happened twice). Also had 2 seasons where he won 9 games. His peaks were going 12-2 and winning the SEC/national title (2007), going 13-1 and winning the SEC/making the national title game (2011), and going 11-2 and winning the SEC West (2005). He also had two other 11-win seasons (2006 and 2010), one of which he won the Sugar Bowl and finished #3 in the country.

Yet you still don't "validate him as successful;" that's only unsuccessful if you define unsuccessful to mean "wins less than Saban."
 
#90

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#90
Don't you have to factor in what his peaks were too? From 2005-2015, his valley was 8-5 (happened twice). Also had 2 seasons where he won 9 games. His peaks were going 12-2 and winning the SEC/national title (2007), going 13-1 and winning the SEC/making the national title game (2011), and going 11-2 and winning the SEC West (2005). He also had two other 11-win seasons (2006 and 2010), one of which he won the Sugar Bowl and finished #3 in the country.

Yet you still don't "validate him as successful;" that's only unsuccessful if you define unsuccessful to mean "wins less than Saban."
Taking Saban out of the equation he averaged 5 losses a year at OK State in his 4 years there. So no, his best year he back into the title because others lost.... not because they locked it up on the field. Won 9 games twice, also had two 5 loss seasons. To me his record started in 2008 as to who he is from recruiting to final result. Take the Saban losses out at LSU and he still lost 20 games elsewhere.
 
#91

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#91
Taking Saban out of the equation he averaged 5 losses a year at OK State in his 4 years there. So no, his best year he back into the title because others lost.... not because they locked it up on the field. Won 9 games twice, also had two 5 loss seasons. To me his record started in 2008 as to who he is from recruiting to final result. Take the Saban losses out at LSU and he still lost 20 games elsewhere.
Oklahoma St and LSU are in no way similar programs and any comparison between his time at those places is pointless.

You think that anything good he did from 2005-08 is of no credit to him because he had Saban recruits on those teams. That's unreasonable. Most of the 2007-08 rosters would have been Miles recruits, and the juniors/seniors on those teams who he did not recruit would have been developed by Miles's staffs (they would have been true freshmen on Saban's final team or were part of Saban's final recruiting class).

However, even if you think anything he did in his first 3 seasons is no credit to him, he still won the SEC and almost won a title in 2011 and had 3 other double-digit win seasons (2010, 2012, 2013). Your argument only makes sense if Les won a title in year 1 or year 2, then went 8-5 consistently for a number of years after that until he was fired.

What precisely would be your definition of "success" for Les's tenure at LSU? The only consistent underachievement he had was right at the very end, and he was fired for it.
 
#92

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#92
Oklahoma St and LSU are in no way similar programs and any comparison between his time at those places is pointless.

You think that anything good he did from 2005-08 is of no credit to him because he had Saban recruits on those teams. That's unreasonable. Most of the 2007-08 rosters would have been Miles recruits, and the juniors/seniors on those teams who he did not recruit would have been developed by Miles's staffs (they would have been true freshmen on Saban's final team or were part of Saban's final recruiting class).

However, even if you think anything he did in his first 3 seasons is no credit to him, he still won the SEC and almost won a title in 2011 and had 3 other double-digit win seasons (2010, 2012, 2013). Your argument only makes sense if Les won a title in year 1 or year 2, then went 8-5 consistently for a number of years after that until he was fired.

What precisely would be your definition of "success" for Les's tenure at LSU? The only consistent underachievement he had was right at the very end, and he was fired for it.
The bring up OK State was to show he's not a good coach. We don't see it the same, I don't mind those who believe he accomplished something. Successful coaches win the games they are supposed to win and find ways to win games they are not. He had some good wins, no doubt but also had some bad losses. His first game at home in 2005 was against Tennessee, up 21-0 at halftime to lose to a team in OT to our 5-6 Vols.
 
#93

05_never_again

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#93
The bring up OK State was to show he's not a good coach. We don't see it the same, I don't mind those who believe he accomplished something. Successful coaches win the games they are supposed to win and find ways to win games they are not. He had some good wins, no doubt but also had some bad losses. His first game at home in 2005 was against Tennessee, up 21-0 at halftime to lose to a team in OT to our 5-6 Vols.
I don't think he's a good coach either, but that doesn't mean he was unsuccessful at LSU.

Every coach has "bad losses" except probably Saban.
 
#95

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#95
The bring up OK State was to show he's not a good coach. We don't see it the same, I don't mind those who believe he accomplished something. Successful coaches win the games they are supposed to win and find ways to win games they are not. He had some good wins, no doubt but also had some bad losses. His first game at home in 2005 was against Tennessee, up 21-0 at halftime to lose to a team in OT to our 5-6 Vols.
Was that 2005 game not right after Katrina though and delayed as a result?

Point being, that was not a "normal" game by any stretch of the imagination.

I never really understood UT fans celebrating much after that game and conversely Tiger fans slamming Miles. That was one of those games where you just appreciate the fact that it was actually played.
 
#96

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#96
Was that 2005 game not right after Katrina though and delayed as a result?

Point being, that was not a "normal" game by any stretch of the imagination.

I never really understood UT fans celebrating much after that game and conversely Tiger fans slamming Miles. That was one of those games where you just appreciate the fact that it was actually played.
It was. Skip Bertman refused to play the game here and moved it to Monday night. Not normal sure, but LSU took a 21-0 lead before Rick Clausen comes off the bench for the win.
It was also the same game when out bus with the players had things thrown at it.
 
#98

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#98
Harold Perkins committed today. Have 6 5*’s; lead for Shemar Stewart, another top 10 National player. Have 3 of the top 5 National players committed and a chance for 4 of the top 5 if they get Stewart.

Unreal. Best class ever in the time they’ve measured it.
 
#99

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#99
Harold Perkins committed today. Have 6 5*’s; lead for Shemar Stewart, another top 10 National player. Have 3 of the top 5 National players committed and a chance for 4 of the top 5 if they get Stewart.

Unreal. Best class ever in the time they’ve measured it.
Gonna be interesting to see how many of them are still there in a year.

Saban seems to have the magic touch with getting 5*'s to wait their turn. Guess when half the players who put on an Alabama uniform seemingly get drafted, you can do that.

I don't think Jimbo has that gravitas at this point though.
 
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Well, when 23/28 of their recruits are 4/5*, it doesn’t really matter IF he keeps on pulling similar classes, as the entire 2 deep will be 4/5*.
 

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