Stop judging coaches by tourney success

cncchris33

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That poll is akin to asking mafia goons “who’s the worst of the lot.”
Uhh, okay...sure. His name was still at the top. So what if it’s criminals implicating criminals. The other criminals arrived at a consensus and two stood out as the blackest of pots/kettles.

Inb4, “Racist!”
 

cncchris33

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I'm talking about the Naismith Hall of Fame. Not the college basketball Hall of Fame. The college coaches there are truly elite. The collegiate version is as you say, very lax.
Gotcha. But is Barnes's career all that different from a guy like John Chaney? Chaney has two more E8s but also zero F4s. What about Lou Carnesecca? Ralph Miller?

Barnes is a shoo-in for the college basketball HOF, and while the Naismith HOF may be more selective, he has a resume to rival some of its current lower-tier members, already. He will likely retire with 800, or so, wins and 25+ NCAAT appearances across 4 different schools, a Naismith national COY award, and 6 conference COY awards.
 

Boston Vol

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If Drew is cheating that much and still not getting caught for anything, he's what every school dreams of. That's coach K level stuff.
Krzyzewski and Duke have been caught. Corey Maggette, Chris Duhon, Carlos Boozer, Lance Thomas, Zion Williamson. The NCAA has just chose to ignore it all.
 

VolArmy74

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Gotcha. But is Barnes's career all that different from a guy like John Chaney? Chaney has two more E8s but also zero F4s. What about Lou Carnesecca? Ralph Miller?

Barnes is a shoo-in for the college basketball HOF, and while the Naismith HOF may be more selective, he has a resume to rival some of its current lower-tier members, already. He will likely retire with 800, or so, wins and 25+ NCAAT appearances across 4 different schools, a Naismith national COY award, and 6 conference COY awards.
Barnes just doesn't stack up in comparison to his contemporaries of the era. I don't think you can call him a top 5 coach in the nation at any point in his career over a 4 year stretch and probably not even a top 10 coach in CBB for any 4 year stretch of his career. When people look at the best coaches of his era he will be firmly behind probably around 20 names at least. Who has he been better than or even equal to from the list of K, Self, Roy Williams, Boeheim, Donovan, Olson, Knight, Gary Williams, Jay Wright, Pitino, Izzo, Tubby, Beilein, Huggins, Calhoun, Calipari, Ryan, Lon Kruger, Kelvin Sampson, Few, Tark, Nolan Richardson, and I could probably come up with more. Those are all guys who coached for at least 10 years but generally more like 20+ as Barnes' contemporaries. All of them have better post season success than Barnes and at least half of them have more wins than him.

Keeping in mind that some of these guys are already in the HoF, but overall there are only around 50 total coaches from the last 100 years of NCAA Div 1 Mens basketball in the Naismith. Barnes is also behind guys like Bennent, and Drew in the future, because NCAA titles carry massive weight in the HoF now. Drizzel finally got in with basically a veterans exception a couple years ago and he was the 4th winningest coach of all time when he retired and he won 20 conference regular season and tournament championships and invented midnight madness. Outside of that the worst resumes to get in in the last 20 years have all been to multiple final fours and won NCAA titles.


As for the guys you mentioned, Miller coached 90 percent of his career before the tournament field expanded. At the time he retired and made the HoF he was the 7th winningest college coach ever. Had he had those raw stats in the modern game they wouldn't get him a sniff at the Naismith HoF. Cheney is one of only 3 African American Div 1 college coaches in the HoF and had to spend a lot of his career at a Div II school because African American's were not afforded shots a very many jobs then. He won a Div II National Title and had some very good teams at Temple who hadn't made it to the 2nd round in the NCAA T in 30 years before he got there. Carnesecca also coached a lot of years in the small NCAA field era and was a professional head coach and general manager for a while. All those guys have multiple NCAA National COY awards whereas Barnes has one.
 
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brockytop

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Make a serious accusation and then duck out? Well done. That’s some next level trolling.
It’s not an accusation but I’m not going any further with it. My point is EVERY MAJOR PROGRAM cheats in college basketball. If coaches aren’t doing directly then deals are going through shoe companies, boosters, AAU coaches, etc. You know this.
 

brockytop

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Barnes just doesn't stack up in comparison to his contemporaries of the era. I don't think you can call him a top 5 coach in the nation at any point in his career over a 4 year stretch and probably not even a top 10 coach in CBB for any 4 year stretch of his career. When people look at the best coaches of his era he will be firmly behind probably around 20 names at least. Who has he been better than or even equal to from the list of K, Self, Roy Williams, Boeheim, Donovan, Olson, Knight, Gary Williams, Jay Wright, Pitino, Izzo, Tubby, Beilein, Huggins, Calhoun, Calipari, Ryan, Lon Kruger, Kelvin Sampson, Few, Tark, Nolan Richardson, and I could probably come up with more. Those are all guys who coached for at least 10 years but generally more like 20+ as Barnes' contemporaries. All of them have better post season success than Barnes and at least half of them have more wins than him.

Keeping in mind that some of these guys are already in the HoF, but overall there are only around 50 total coaches from the last 100 years of NCAA Div 1 Mens basketball in the Naismith. Barnes is also behind guys like Bennent, and Drew in the future, because NCAA titles carry massive weight in the HoF now. Drizzel finally got in with basically a veterans exception a couple years ago and he was the 4th winningest coach of all time when he retired and he won 20 conference regular season and tournament championships and invented midnight madness. Outside of that the worst resumes to get in in the last 20 years have all been to multiple final fours and won NCAA titles.


As for the guys you mentioned, Miller coached 90 percent of his career before the tournament field expanded. At the time he retired and made the HoF he was the 7th winningest college coach ever. Had he had those raw stats in the modern game they wouldn't get him a sniff at the Naismith HoF. Cheney is one of only 3 African American Div 1 college coaches in the HoF and had to spend a lot of his career at a Div II school because African American's were not afforded shots a very many jobs then. He won a Div II National Title and had some very good teams at Temple who hadn't made it to the 2nd round in the NCAA T in 30 years before he got there. Carnesecca also coached a lot of years in the small NCAA field era and was a professional head coach and general manager for a while. All those guys have multiple NCAA National COY awards whereas Barnes has one.
IMO, Barnes most equatable contemporary is Lon Kruger.
 
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cncchris33

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Barnes just doesn't stack up in comparison to his contemporaries of the era. I don't think you can call him a top 5 coach in the nation at any point in his career over a 4 year stretch and probably not even a top 10 coach in CBB for any 4 year stretch of his career. When people look at the best coaches of his era he will be firmly behind probably around 20 names at least. Who has he been better than or even equal to from the list of K, Self, Roy Williams, Boeheim, Donovan, Olson, Knight, Gary Williams, Jay Wright, Pitino, Izzo, Tubby, Beilein, Huggins, Calhoun, Calipari, Ryan, Lon Kruger, Kelvin Sampson, Few, Tark, Nolan Richardson, and I could probably come up with more. Those are all guys who coached for at least 10 years but generally more like 20+ as Barnes' contemporaries. All of them have better post season success than Barnes and at least half of them have more wins than him.

Keeping in mind that some of these guys are already in the HoF, but overall there are only around 50 total coaches from the last 100 years of NCAA Div 1 Mens basketball in the Naismith. Barnes is also behind guys like Bennent, and Drew in the future, because NCAA titles carry massive weight in the HoF now. Drizzel finally got in with basically a veterans exception a couple years ago and he was the 4th winningest coach of all time when he retired and he won 20 conference regular season and tournament championships and invented midnight madness. Outside of that the worst resumes to get in in the last 20 years have all been to multiple final fours and won NCAA titles.


As for the guys you mentioned, Miller coached 90 percent of his career before the tournament field expanded. At the time he retired and made the HoF he was the 7th winningest college coach ever. Had he had those raw stats in the modern game they wouldn't get him a sniff at the Naismith HoF. Cheney is one of only 3 African American Div 1 college coaches in the HoF and had to spend a lot of his career at a Div II school because African American's were not afforded shots a very many jobs then. He won a Div II National Title and had some very good teams at Temple who hadn't made it to the 2nd round in the NCAA T in 30 years before he got there. Carnesecca also coached a lot of years in the small NCAA field era and was a professional head coach and general manager for a while. All those guys have multiple NCAA National COY awards whereas Barnes has one.
That was a lot of words to highlight resumes that are SIMILAR to Barnes’s resume, as I already stated. I’m not saying any of them are exponentially better or worse. They are comparable. And I’m not even saying that Barnes’s career is explicitly worthy of Naismith HOF induction, but that it is comparable to others who have made it, and he is still coaching.

Question: is Bruce Pearl a Naismith HOF-worthy head coach?
 

VolArmy74

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That was a lot of words to highlight resumes that are SIMILAR to Barnes’s resume, as I already stated. I’m not saying any of them are exponentially better or worse. They are comparable. And I’m not even saying that Barnes’s career is explicitly worthy of Naismith HOF induction, but that it is comparable to others who have made it, and he is still coaching.

Question: is Bruce Pearl a Naismith HOF-worthy head coach?
But they aren't all that similar because the guys I listed have a lot more post season success as a rule and generally more career wins. Even though the OP doesn't like it. The post season defines this sport even more than others.

Bruce is ahead of Barnes from a sheer stats standpoint but still not likely to make the Hall of Fame. His division II NCAA title and additional Div II championship game appearance plus his FF give him a similar resume to Cheney. But he'd likely have to make 2-3 more FFs or win an NCAA Div 1 title to get to the HoF.
 

cncchris33

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But they aren't all that similar because the guys I listed have a lot more post season success as a rule and generally more career wins. Even though the OP doesn't like it. The post season defines this sport even more than others.

Bruce is ahead of Barnes from a sheer stats standpoint but still not likely to make the Hall of Fame. His division II NCAA title and additional Div II championship game appearance plus his FF give him a similar resume to Cheney. But he'd likely have to make 2-3 more FFs or win an NCAA Div 1 title to get to the HoF.
The heck they aren’t similar. Chaney coached 24 years in D1 basketball, too, so I’m not going allow his time spent in D2 to be a crutch. It’s not like he toiled away the majority of his career in the lower ranks and just got a shot towards the end of his career. While Chaney was padding wins at the D2 level, Barnes was cutting his coaching teeth in the Colonial, Big East and ACC to start his career, and almost all of his notable success came at Texas and Tennessee. So, it could be argued that of each coach’s 700+ wins, Barnes did it against much stiffer competition.

Chaney has exactly 14 more career wins and Barnes is still coaching. They each have one national COY award, Barnes has one more conference COY award, one more NCAAT win, two more Sweet 16s, and a Final Four.

And I bring up Pearl because he more closely parallels Chaney with his D2 career and success, but the idea that he is ahead of Barnes by sheer stats...what stats? Again, his D2 career isn’t a crutch, so I’m only using his career in D1 because we are comparing apples to apples. His postseason success at the D1 level closely mirrors that of Barnes (one F4, two E8s, five S16s, 5 conference COY awards). They also have almost identical winning %s at the D1 level.

You’ll need a lot of help convincing me that those aren’t all similar resumes.
 

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