Space Exploration

Are NASA's future missions and budget justified?

  • It's worth the time and expenditures

    Votes: 225 65.8%

  • Complete waste of money

    Votes: 42 12.3%

  • We need to explore, but not at the current cost

    Votes: 75 21.9%
  • Total voters
    342
#1,727
#1,727
zeppelin128 said:
Badass pic of STP-2, launching tonight with 24 satellites in payload. The outer boosters are being reused, hence the cool burn marks on them.
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Johnson

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Private

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#1,728
#1,728
zeppelin128 said:
Badass pic of STP-2, launching tonight with 24 satellites in payload. The outer boosters are being reused, hence the cool burn marks on them.
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We've come a long way baby. I took this at Marshall a few years ago. This is where the rocket engine that would launch Alan Sheperd into space was first tested. The fuel was liquid oxygen and kerosene. About a hundred yards behind me is a mostly underground steel and concrete observation bunker. This is the hull of one of the few Redstone rockets still in existence. This site was placed in the National Registry of Historic Sites in 1976.


IMG_0521.jpeg


This is what it looked like then:

Mercury_Capsule_at_Redstone_Test_Stand.jpg
 
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#1,729
#1,729
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#1,733
#1,733
Hunerwadel said:
One of the great spoils of the war were the German scientists and engineers. Russia did get a few but the US got the lions share. The scientists we brought over did get some credit and were well compensated, especially Von Braun and his team. The Russians kept theirs hidden, almost imprisoned, and hardly acknowledged them. But they helped build the Russian space program.
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Operation Paperclip is reason #45,387 to not trust that our government has the best intentions at heart.
 
#1,734
#1,734
Velo Vol said:
The Apollo 11 documentary that aired on CNN last night was interesting. It was entirely made of footage/photos from the time of the mission.

I assume they will run it again, if you missed it.
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Its available on Blu-ray & Digital. Got mine a month ago at Walmart.
 
#1,735
#1,735
I know this is off topic but since we were talking science stuff earlier. @marcusluvsvols I have started reading about superconductors. I have been reading all weak about them and still feel like i have no clue what is going on.

from what I have read they have said they are resistance less conductors, so an electrical charge in one, if looped, will never dissipate. and because it is "anti" magnetic field, it will float over a magnet.

No resistance means no heat, and if its floating, there seems to be a lot of scientific/real world applications of it.

only limitation that I see so far is you have to get stuff super cold to reach this state, and it seems like most of the materials they are mentioning are going to be relatively expensive.
 
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#1,736
#1,736
So far i dont think we have achieved a true zero resistance super conductor...but the ones we test all have to be very very cold.

A room temp superconductor is like cold fusion...which would make our vehicles run on hydrogen and oxygen, and only produce water...the "holy grail" of science problems being always worked on...because either one would completely change our abilities as a species, perhaps bump us up to a higher level of civilization as humans once all the applications were made. Like star travel, colonizing the moon and mars, etc...cold fusion would also completely destroy all the economies of the world as we wouldn't need petroleum anymore...so i dont think government will ever let it happen. I am not a conspiracy guy, but there was an american inventor in the 70s or 80s that made a device that generated free electricity...it was smaller than 3 feet cubed and could have probably powered an entire house. His patents were destroyed before approval, device was seized and probably destroyed, and he disappeared also if memory serves. CIA etc got him. I have read that there is enough energy in a square meter of our air to power a home for a year or something crazy if we could harness it...burning dead plants and animals via coal and oil is a barbaric way to make energy...but as long as it is a multi trillion dollar scheme and our dollars are tied to it...thats exactly what we will do. As always, money talks. I will see if i can find an article about that guy...he qas almost a modern day tesla...who i am convinced was destroyed professionally and personally for the exact same reasons. Money.
 
#1,737
#1,737
LouderVol said:
I know this is off topic but since we were talking science stuff earlier. @marcusluvsvols I have started reading about superconductors. I have been reading all weak about them and still feel like i have no clue what is going on.

from what I have read they have said they are resistance less conductors, so an electrical charge in one, if looped, will never dissipate. and because it is "anti" magnetic field, it will float over a magnet.

No resistance means no heat, and if its floating, there seems to be a lot of scientific/real world applications of it.

only limitation that I see so far is you have to get stuff super cold to reach this state, and it seems like most of the materials they are mentioning are going to be relatively expensive.
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Superconductivity is kind of like the red headed stepchild of physics. People seem to shy away from it. Several Nobels have been handed out to scientists for developments in the field but I doubt if one person out of a thousand could name any of them. When breakthroughs are made in other areas such as the Higgs field and detecting the first gravitational waves they make headlines and capture imaginations. But when you see a headline that states: "New Quasi-2D Superconductor Bridges Ferroelectric Insulator" everyone takes a collective yawn. Me included. It's not interesting (to me) and it's difficult to understand. In my 70 years I've probably read 20-30 books each on quantum, classical and astro-physics. Not to mention many hundreds of magazine articles (when there were magazines) before the internet. I find it interesting, fascinating and as Einstein put it, a bit spooky. I enjoy discussing it when the opportunity arises. It's my loss I suppose but I haven't put any effort into understanding superconductivity. I just don't know enough about it to discuss it.
 
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#1,738
#1,738
Hunerwadel said:
Superconductivity is kind of like the red headed stepchild of physics. People seem to shy away from it. Several Nobels have been handed out to scientists for developments in the field but I doubt if one person out of a thousand could name any of them. When breakthroughs are made in other areas such as the Higgs field and detecting the first gravitational waves they make headlines and capture imaginations. But when you see a headline that states: "New Quasi-2D Superconductor Bridges Ferroelectric Insulator" everyone takes a collective yawn. Me included. It's not interesting (to me) and it's difficult to understand. In my 70 years I've probably read 20-30 books each on quantum, classical and astro-physics. Not to mention many hundreds of magazine articles (when there were magazines) before the internet. I find it interesting, fascinating and as Einstein put it, a bit spooky. I enjoy discussing it when the opportunity arises. It's my loss I suppose but I haven't put any effort into understanding superconductivity. I just don't know enough about it to discuss it.
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it is left out. and i think its largely because we cant theoretically explain why it works. we know it works, and what it takes. and even some of the supercoliders use it. so we have a practical, functional knowledge of it. but the great why still sits there. and it seems like another quasi/possible case of quantum stuff happening. to the continuous loop/storage of energy, one article (it might have been the one you mentioned as that is what started me down the path) said they have a real example of a loop working for 23 years with no drop in energy. although I didn't see a reference for where that is actually taking place.

right now even just reading the wikipedia pages takes me several tries to fully swallow the concepts or just follow what they are saying. This is the type of stuff I would have devoured before my concussions, and would love to talk with my uncle about.

so just because I am on a nerd roll, and I am somewhat sensing a desire on your part to understand here we go, as I understand it.

conceptually anything element/molecule/whatever at absolute zero is a perfect conductor, meaning no interference or energy loss to an electrical current applied to the substance. but seeing as how absolute zero is another of those things just out of our reach for forever, superconductors are the next step. One of the reasons they aren't just "perfect conductors" is because when something reaches a superconducting phase it has other shared properties besides the non resistance. there may be more than two things, but as far as I remember these are the two other things they mentioned. 1. Ejection of weak magnetic fields. 2. Sudden phase shifts.

So to item 2 first, and this kinda explains what happens. You take one of these compounds and as it gets colder and colder its resistance drops by some fixed ratio, compound specific. But when it reaches some critical temperature, again compound specific, that resistance will suddenly drop to zero. It is at that moment that the magnetic fields are also ejected. So the thinking is that a superconductor isn't so much a "thing" as much as it is a "phase" like liquid, solid, gas. they can apparently make a lot of different materials enter a superconducting phase, each has its own critical temp. once it has reached that critical temp, further cooling does nothing as far as they can tell. and many of these materials are very dissimilar to each other, so its not like there is a magic element to add or anything.

The "hottest" superconductor they have found reaches that state at 135K, or -217 degrees Farenheit. so still really fricking cold, but a temp that liquid nitrogen can reach so its much more attainable. most are more in the 30K range (-405), and it takes some very specific conditions to reach that 135.

now this is where things get weird. heres a link to the weirdness, imo. Cooper pair - Wikipedia
So my understanding is that it may not be just the material that changes, the actual electrical charge also changes. More of these Cooper Pairs are present in a super cold super conductor. these pairs don't bounce around like normal electrons causing themselves to lose/pass on energy from the charge itself. in the paired state they don't bounce but just move. what I am thinking I am reading here is that one electron from the electrical charge forms this Cooper Pair with an electron from whatever supercold material. these pairs exist because there bond is so weak that even a little thermoenergy (heat) can break the bond. but at these lower temps these electrons can do this.

So where I go back to being fuzzy is I am not sure what exactly this pairing means. as it sounds like Cooper Pairs dont have to be close to each other, so its not like the electrical charge is "trapped" per se or held in place. but it also says that the electrical charge, which can normally be thought of as a fluid, is now a superfluid. so it sounds like the electrical charge is changing as well. but again I don't know what that means when it comes to superconductors. it just means that it can flow without losing energy, because they aren't bouncing off of things, but nothing tells me if they are still moving, or how their movement is different after this pairing. one article related it to glass, glass is a liquid, it just flows really slow, so maybe that is what is happening with the current? Or maybe the electrons just float around their pairs and don't move away, but just keep circling maintaining a set distance and speed? again IDK and I haven't seen an explanation.

so now to item 1. as I said before the rejection of magnetic fields happens at the same time resistance drops. wikipedia has some images that explain this. but basically magnetic fields can usually pass thru anything, as long as another field isnt interferring. and so for normal, non magnetic items, these fields pass as straight lines. but once a superconductor reaches that state suddenly the magnetic fields will pass around the object. now this part of the state can be broken by a high enough magnetic field, what I don't currently understand, is if once its broken it loses its non resistance as well, even if still super cold and everything. which raises the question to me of how electricity and magnetic fields interact already. so on the magnetic side some materials work differently than others. some have a thin layer where the magnetic fields still pass, but others completely eject them. again this is completely material specific and not cold specific. and this is also tied to what happens when they are no longer super cooled.

item one is why you see all the cool photos of objects floating. its not two magnetic waves pushing against each other, its one magnetic wave pushing against the object. so this floating also helps keep things cold, and any other interference from happening.

anyway nerd rant over. fascinating stuff to read about if you dont' mind the headaches.
 
#1,739
#1,739
Thanks Louder. I learned a lot from your post. I dont have much knowledge about superconductors so thats helpful.

This is a very broad statement...but i believe that understanding gravity and magnetic fields is what will determine when and if we take the next step as a civilization, and probably whether or not we survive as a species. I was just a small kid when i got to play around with 2 strong magnets that my pappaw kept in his shop, and i realized even then how powerful these crazy things were at repelling and attracting eachother. With no electricity (or other energy) added to them. Magnets and their fields are amazing and we know little to nothing about how and why they work. Gravity is also amazing, and there are a bunch of folks looking for waves as we speak. It is also very powerful, though it seems to require huge amounts of mass in order to be strong. We understand little to nothing about gravity, either. Another one, though i know it sounds crazy....is time. We understand very little about the 4th dimension. Seemingly only knowing that it passes, and that it seems to slow down somehow at great speed. Why? As far as i know we have no idea.

To me, those 3 things and everything that pertains to them are fascinating. I believe that 1 or maybe all of them will be the key to star travel, and colonizing other planets in order to save humanity...should the Lord tarry.
 
#1,741
#1,741
A Heads up!

Beginning to tonight on Nat Geo. Then lots of other networks over the next couple of weeks are a lot of specials on Apollo 11 as we mark its 50th Anniversary! Keep an eye on your on screen guide for more Info.

One such special is this Three Night American Experience special on PBS!
CHASING THE MOON
 
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#1,743
#1,743
Hunerwadel said:
Nice to see Russia (along with Germany) is still in the exploration game.


Russia launches international X-ray astronomy mission – Astronomy Now
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It will be interesting to see if they can get this X-ray thingy to work like it's suppose to.
If they do get it to work right and they do have new fantastic information will they be nice to share w/the world?
Are they sure that this is not a military mission to spy on USA and others around the world?
Can we trust these a-holes to do the right thing as to live for world peace and not use this as a laser beam?
 
#1,744
#1,744
Hunerwadel said:
We've come a long way baby. I took this at Marshall a few years ago. This is where the rocket engine that would launch Alan Sheperd into space was first tested. The fuel was liquid oxygen and kerosene. About a hundred yards behind me is a mostly underground steel and concrete observation bunker. This is the hull of one of the few Redstone rockets still in existence. This site was placed in the National Registry of Historic Sites in 1976.


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This is what it looked like then:

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I was stationed at Redstone Arsenal for about four years, loved it there. Lots and lots of secret stuff still going on in the back 40 down by the river.
 
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#1,745
#1,745
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
It will be interesting to see if they can get this X-ray thingy to work like it's suppose to.
If they do get it to work right and they do have new fantastic information will they be nice to share w/the world?
Are they sure that this is not a military mission to spy on USA and others around the world?
Can we trust these a-holes to do the right thing as to live for world peace and not use this as a laser beam?
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Since Apollo/Soyuz we have maintained pretty relations with Russia regarding our space programs. The space station has been jointly manned since its launch and we have worked together on many scientific projects on board. And of course we've been hitching rides with them since the end of the SST missions.

It's probably not any kind of spy or military contraption. Lagrange points are not optimum positions for spying on earth but are very good for remaining stationery in space and looking outward at the cosmos. I trust that the telescope is what they say it is. If it were something different we could probably tell by its configuration just by examining it with Hubble.

You're right about one thing. It's yet to be seen if the thing will actually work. But since it was a joint venture with Germany there's a good chance that it will. They have pretty good engineers.
 
#1,746
#1,746
Septic said:
I was stationed at Redstone Arsenal for about four years, loved it there. Lots and lots of secret stuff still going on in the back 40 down by the river.
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I have a relative who works for NASA at Marshall. He took us on a tour a few years ago. Mostly of the NASA operations and facilities. I remember we passed a large building on the back side of the base and I asked him what goes on there? He said he didn't know and didn't want to. I was amazed at all the rows of little "huts" that used to store chem and bio weapons. They may have torn them down by now.
 
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#1,749
#1,749
CagleMtnVol said:
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What a load of hooey. We won't be anywhere near the moon in 5 years. This is nothing but bunch of politicians talking. And of course, they have to throw in there that 'a woman' will be going to the moon as well... good grief. Get a twofer. Make it a half black half latina woman.
 
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#1,750
#1,750
SpaceCoastVol said:
What a load of hooey. We won't be anywhere near the moon in 5 years. This is nothing but bunch of politicians talking. And of course, they have to throw in there that 'a woman' will be going to the moon as well... good grief. Get a twofer. Make it a half black half latina woman.
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I wouldn't be so sure for the first time probably since the Kennedy administration I believe the Trump administration particularly VP Pence and the new NASA Administrator wants to get this done. I think the President wants to this before his next term is out. In an interview yesterday Administrator Jim Bridenstine said we would have already gotten back to the moon had the Obama administration not cancelled the Constellation program.

In a interview this morning Elon Musk said he thinks we can not only be on the moon but be on Mars in the next 5 years as well.

The key is for the republicans to take back the House. Fox did an interview with Texas Democrat Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson chairwoman of the science, space and Tech committee says she is in the process of gathering information to decide how to best fund future programs for NASA.

Based on this interview I don't have much hope also I can't believe someone like this is in charge of a committee! I don't think she knew anything she was being asked or what Apollo was.
 
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