Some Perspective on "Rebuilds"

#126
#126
lifeisdeep said:
For what it's worth, I never believed in either Dooley or Jones. I was upset when Dooley was hired but could understand it to a degree due to the awful position Kiffin left us in; I was disgusted when Jones was hired because it seemed to be a K-mart hire when we could have gotten someone better if we had been willing to spend the money (and if a certain family had not been pulling the strings). From his second season on, I never watched a game that made me believe in Jones. It seemed to me that anytime he ever spoke he revealed how unqualified he was to be coach at any Power 5 program.

I was cautiously optimistic about Pruitt when he was hired because, unlike Jones, he had accomplishments, if not as a HC, at the Power 5 level, and significant ones that closely paralleled Kirby. I agree that it's too early to judge him; but the early returns do not look promising. Even recruiting, where he promised to take us to the very top, does not look markedly different from Jones other than a better focus on the offensive and defensive lines. The coaches that succeed now in the SEC at the highest level dominate from the start on the recruiting trail - look at what Jimbo is already doing, or what Kirby did with his first full class, or Saban with his first full class.
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As much as I want to disagree with this, I really can't. I've said on here before that really good head coaches make usually make obvious (perhaps modest, but noticeable) improvements immediately. Immediately meaning in year 1 and into year 2.

We are 5 games into year 1 and this team is noticeably worse in multiple areas (offensive line in particular) and perhaps somewhat better in only one, QB play. The recruiting so far is not exactly "knock your socks off" either, although as jake said I won't totally judge that until guys start actually signing. I hear the perspective of Pruitt is going after guys who fit his schemes and not star rating alone, but I'd like to think that there are guys out there that fit his scheme who are 4 and 5-star guys. A lot of the "beef" he has gotten to verbally commit so far are 3-star guys.

I'm still not going to settle on a judgment of Pruitt until he's coaching a team that is made up predominately of his players. That won't happen until year 3/4.
 
#128
#128
Thing is, it seems like many want to have it both ways. When the program is down and you point to the intangibles, they say "just win." Yet, when a coach they don't like is winning, they point to the intangibles as evidence of pending doom.

BTW, I am hardly defending Jones. By the middle of '16, I think the writing was on the wall. Maybe sooner if I would have paid more attention. But, he was winning. Honestly, my biggest fear at the time was that he would be a perpetual 8-9 win team and never any better.
 
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#129
#129
05_never_again said:
What do you mean by "winning?" You mean 7 wins in year 2? 9 wins? 10/11 wins and talk of conference titles? I agree that a good coach makes improvements that are obvious in year 1 and 2 but might not have the program truly humming until the 3rd year.

I think you are partially correct. Unless you end up with Saban and he does make you one of the top teams in the country by year 2, I'm not sure you know you have a great coach for a few years. Nobody will admit this now, but these boards were broadly on board with Butch until the 2016 South Carolina game. He steadily improved this program from from 2013-15. 2016 was supposed to be the year Tennessee finally won something, but there was no improvement that year, then the next year the bottom fell out.

It was not clearly apparent Butch was not a top coach until midway through the 2016 season. Of course it is obvious now, but let's not act like the writing was on the wall about Butch in 2013-14 or something crazy like that.
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I was done with Butch after 2015. That was an insanely talented team and it was clear the losses were due to his coaching. If he didn’t run the hurry up against OU in the second half they wouldn’t of had enough time to come back. Not going for 2 against UF then blaming it on a chart. Also all the penalties he refused that would have put UF in worse positions. Trying to kick 3 field goals against Bama that were clearly out of his kicker’s range in a field position battle game.

It was clear Butch couldn’t coach but everyone here saw 2 more wins than the previous year and that was enough. You know by year 3 if you have a good coach and it isn’t from looking at the W-L record.
 
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#130
#130
08Vol said:
I was done with Butch after 2015. That was an insanely talented team and it was clear the losses were due to his coaching. If he didn’t run the hurry up against OU in the second half they wouldn’t of had enough time to come back. Not going for 2 against UF then blaming it on a chart. Also all the penalties he refused that would have put UF in worse positions. Trying to kick 3 field goals against Bama that were clearly out of his kicker’s range in a field position battle game.

It was clear Butch couldn’t coach but everyone here saw 2 more wins than the previous year and that was enough. You know by year 3 if you have a good coach and it isn’t from looking at the W-L record.
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Year 3 had all the hallmarks of a team that didn't know how to finish games yet. The 2015 team was still somewhat young and was absolutely not being used to winning. I will not argue for one second that Butch's coaching decisions didn't play a role in the losses to Oklahoma and Florida. However, the players also noticeably tightened up late in those games. It was classic "playing not to lose, not playing to win." They did not lose those games entirely because of bad coaching decisions. Players play the game.

Jalen Hurd had a blatant, no excuses fumble in the dying seconds of the third quarter of the Oklahoma game that we got back but was a bad omen. Malik Foreman ran an Oklahoma WR out the back of the end zone on a 2nd and 14 that set up the tying score in regulation and fell down while covering Sterling Shepard on the winning score in OT. Baker Mayfield scrambled around and kept untold numbers of plays alive in the second half - the dude won the Heisman the next year so that stuff just happens. Sterling Shepard just made some plays - he's an NFL receiver now. The developments in the Florida game were more on coaching, I agree.

As time went on, you'd expect the team (both players and coaches) to learn from those mistakes and continue to improve, but they did not. The thing with 2015 was that there were mistakes that cost them games, but there really wasn't anything that indicated they were incapable of learning from them. I still think it wasn't clear until midway through 2016 that Butch wasn't much of a coach.
 
#131
#131
05_never_again said:
Year 3 had all the hallmarks of a team that didn't know how to finish games yet. The 2015 team was still somewhat young and was absolutely not being used to winning. I will not argue for one second that Butch's coaching decisions didn't play a role in the losses to Oklahoma and Florida. However, the players also noticeably tightened up late in those games. It was classic "playing not to lose, not playing to win." They did not lose those games entirely because of bad coaching decisions. Players play the game.

Jalen Hurd had a blatant, no excuses fumble in the dying seconds of the third quarter of the Oklahoma game that we got back but was a bad omen. Malik Foreman ran an Oklahoma WR out the back of the end zone on a 2nd and 14 that set up the tying score in regulation and fell down while covering Sterling Shepard on the winning score in OT. Baker Mayfield scrambled around and kept untold numbers of plays alive in the second half - the dude won the Heisman the next year so that stuff just happens. Sterling Shepard just made some plays - he's an NFL receiver now. The developments in the Florida game were more on coaching, I agree.

As time went on, you'd expect the team (both players and coaches) to learn from those mistakes and continue to improve, but they did not. The thing with 2015 was that there were mistakes that cost them games, but there really wasn't anything that indicated they were incapable of learning from them. I still think it wasn't clear until midway through 2016 that Butch wasn't much of a coach.
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2016 validated every concern I had in 2015.
 
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#132
#132
BowlBrother85 said:
Stop with this "whoa, is me" garbage..... Tennessee has the necessary resources to be successful. Who cares what Vandy and Kentucky are doing? - or even South Carolina. The landscape hasn't changed as much as the defeatists want to think. We need the right coach. We have everything else.
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No we dont have everything else. And stop with this, "but we are Tennessee" stuff. Expectations are higher here and we expect championships. I mean THAT Tennessee has been gone for a long, long time. If we had everything we need, we wouldnt have lost to UF 5 put the last 6 years. We wouldnt have a 2 year losing streak to Vandy and SC. We wouldnt have gotten destroyed by Missouri or beaten by UK.

If we had what we needed, we should only be losing 2 games a year, Bama and UGA. But we dont. We need an almost entire roster overhaul. But yeah, just like UCLA and Nebraska, all we need is the right coach. Lol.
 
#134
#134
05_never_again said:
Another thing to keep in mind is that there have been extended periods of time where Tennessee football has not been very good. Longer than you would realize. Check out 1973-1983. Or the early 1960s.

What makes the current state of affairs so alarming is that we went winless in conference play last year for the first time ever, and based on how the team looks so far this year we might go winless again. It could be 0-16 in conference play over a span of 2 years, or something like 2-14 at best. 0-8 in conference play this year would be 17 conference losses in a row. I cannot believe I just typed that previous sentence as anything other than a joke.
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I find it hard to believe CBJ didn't see this coming, but, knowing CBJ, he probably didn't.
 
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#135
#135
MWAVolfan said:
Bret Bielema went 3-9 his first year, then 7-6 then 8-5 then his @ss was fired in yr 5 AT ARKANSAS.

Point is, aint nobody got "years to rebuild" anymore. This isnt 1999. When Arkansas is firing its coach for not winning more, what do you think is supposed to happen at a traditional football power like Tennessee?

UT has tried the "wait and see" thing twice in a row and it failed twice in a row. And the guy we have as head coach now has less experience that either Dooley or Lyle had when we hired them.
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True. But the experience he DOES have is with a much better quality program. 'Bama, Fl St nor Georgia are Cincinnati or La Tech. CJP knows good, and he knows what good looks like. I don't think CBJ had a frigging clue about SEC good and I have my doubts about DooLittle. If CJP gets a little time and some of his recruits and S&C under his belt, I like our chances.
 
#136
#136
SaintLouisVol said:
What crystal ball exactly was the UT admin supposed to use to know how the next two years were going to shake out? 2015 was, by most reasonable accounts, a pretty encouraging year for the football program.
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Not trying to be a SA, but things like "leadership reps", "5 star hearts" and "I will know more when I see the film" (2 days after the game) stuff might have been a clue.
 
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#137
#137
MWAVolfan said:
Bret Bielema went 3-9 his first year, then 7-6 then 8-5 then his @ss was fired in yr 5 AT ARKANSAS.

Point is, aint nobody got "years to rebuild" anymore. This isnt 1999. When Arkansas is firing its coach for not winning more, what do you think is supposed to happen at a traditional football power like Tennessee?

UT has tried the "wait and see" thing twice in a row and it failed twice in a row. And the guy we have as head coach now has less experience that either Dooley or Lyle had when we hired them.
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Dooley lasted three years. How the heck is that “wait and see?” Jones won 9 games his third year. He then won 9 again. He flopped for one year and was walked.

Reality just doesn’t support your narrative.
 
#138
#138
SaintLouisVol said:
Dooley lasted three years. How the heck is that “wait and see?” Jones won 9 games his third year. He then won 9 again. He flopped for one year and was walked.

Reality just doesn’t support your narrative.
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FLOPPED with all caps though, and the flopping was looking worse as the season wore on, especially when it was obvious he lost the team, and the team quit on him big time. Dooley had other issues but it became very obvious CBJ wasn't gonna cut it as an SEC HC. I predict some of you will be worried about losing CJP in 3 to 4 years.
 
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#139
#139
lifeVol said:
Not trying to be a SA, but things like "leadership reps", "5 star hearts" and "I will know more when I see the film" (2 days after the game) stuff might have been a clue.
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Coaches don’t have to win the press conferences. He could be a total cornball, but as long as he wins, it doesn’t matter. Same way you say everything right and lose and it doesn’t matter.

The team got better the first three years. The only legitimate debate is if he should have been shown the door after winning 9 games in 2016.
 
#140
#140
SaintLouisVol said:
While absolutely true, do you think he should have been fired after 2016.
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I would have.

But In reality, our situation was such that it would have been a very bad time to fire a coach with a lame duck ad, question mark at Chancellor, and some major competition out there for coaches that off season.

Turns out it still wound up pretty awful.

But long term, things probably worked out. Rock and a hard place if how I would describe the end of the 2016 season.

No one could have predicted how bad 2017 turned out to be and the ensuing debacle of an off season.
 
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#141
#141
I can say that CJP knows football. It's in his background, he has had success and he knows how to practice. I believe , strictly based on my observations, that he is not trying to 'win' he is coaching. He inherited the worst team in Tennessee's storied history. There was no S&C , half the roster was injured or coming back from injuries, the best players bolted for the NFL , there is no depth , but the worst facet is that the team as a whole has no fundamental football skills The culture was horrible. The inmates ran the asylum. To think that he can come in and just tap the X button faster and churn out some W,s is silly. The juniors and seniors on this team have not progressed physically or in a football sense. The team is 1-3 years behind. The coaches are progressing with only plays that the team can execute ...and most of the time they can't. This is just a big scrimmage season.

The functional tenant with any rebuild is A ) how good were they the year before B ) how was the last recruiting cycle C ) how tough is the schedule . The Answers A ) as bad as they have ever been B) terrible due to the idiotic coaching search C ) brutal.

Based on past results, the team will break even this season or take a meager step forward. Next year they will leap forward and probably make a bowl ( didn't say playoff's of SEC championship) . I have seen fundamental improvements every game despite the score board.
 
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#142
#142
jakez4ut said:
I would have.

But In reality, our situation was such that it would have been a very bad time to fire a coach with a lame duck ad, question mark at Chancellor, and some major competition out there for coaches that off season.

Turns out it still wound up pretty awful.

But long term, things probably worked out. Rock and a hard place if how I would describe the end of the 2016 season.

No one could have predicted how bad 2017 turned out to be and the ensuing debacle of an off season.
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You need to be extremely careful injecting calm, clear intellect and reason into this debate. It may derail the whole thing.
 
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#144
#144
BowlBrother85 said:
Stop with this "whoa, is me" garbage..... Tennessee has the necessary resources to be successful. Who cares what Vandy and Kentucky are doing? - or even South Carolina. The landscape hasn't changed as much as the defeatists want to think. We need the right coach. We have everything else.
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LMAO @ ‘woah, is me’. Sounds like Mario’s catchphrase.

Think we can add that one alongside pocket presents and pre Madonna
 
#145
#145
majic73 said:
I can say that CJP knows football. It's in his background, he has had success and he knows how to practice. I believe , strictly based on my observations, that he is not trying to 'win' he is coaching. He inherited the worst team in Tennessee's storied history. There was no S&C , half the roster was injured or coming back from injuries, the best players bolted for the NFL , there is no depth , but the worst facet is that the team as a whole has no fundamental football skills The culture was horrible. The inmates ran the asylum. To think that he can come in and just tap the X button faster and churn out some W,s is silly. The juniors and seniors on this team have not progressed physically or in a football sense. The team is 1-3 years behind. The coaches are progressing with only plays that the team can execute ...and most of the time they can't. This is just a big scrimmage season.

The functional tenant with any rebuild is A ) how good were they the year before B ) how was the last recruiting cycle C ) how tough is the schedule . The Answers A ) as bad as they have ever been B) terrible due to the idiotic coaching search C ) brutal.

Based on past results, the team will break even this season or take a meager step forward. Next year they will leap forward and probably make a bowl ( didn't say playoff's of SEC championship) . I have seen fundamental improvements every game despite the score board.
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This
 
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#147
#147
MWAVolfan said:
Stop it with the hindsight bias and go back and actually read my posts dude. I LIVED it, in the moment when all of you were sucked in.

I'm the guy who called Butch Jones a gutless coward during what you consider "the season they could have won 11 games".

Get out of here with that crap. I called his B.S from the beginning. I said "this guy can talk and get recruits but wait until he coaches"

I wasnt the only one. Guys like Finebaum saw it too. But God forbid any of you BIASED people actually give "that Bammer homer" any credit for being absolutely right.

It was all there to see.
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Here comes MWA's true colors. The I told you so bs!
 
#149
#149
majic73 said:
I can say that CJP knows football. It's in his background, he has had success and he knows how to practice. I believe , strictly based on my observations, that he is not trying to 'win' he is coaching. He inherited the worst team in Tennessee's storied history. There was no S&C , half the roster was injured or coming back from injuries, the best players bolted for the NFL , there is no depth , but the worst facet is that the team as a whole has no fundamental football skills The culture was horrible. The inmates ran the asylum. To think that he can come in and just tap the X button faster and churn out some W,s is silly. The juniors and seniors on this team have not progressed physically or in a football sense. The team is 1-3 years behind. The coaches are progressing with only plays that the team can execute ...and most of the time they can't. This is just a big scrimmage season.

The functional tenant with any rebuild is A ) how good were they the year before B ) how was the last recruiting cycle C ) how tough is the schedule . The Answers A ) as bad as they have ever been B) terrible due to the idiotic coaching search C ) brutal.

Based on past results, the team will break even this season or take a meager step forward. Next year they will leap forward and probably make a bowl ( didn't say playoff's of SEC championship) . I have seen fundamental improvements every game despite the score board.
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Good post is a good post.
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#150
#150
Berry4Heisman14 said:
I’ve been patient for the last decade. I’m 25 years old and I fear I’ll never see a good Tennessee team in my lifetime.
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25 years old worrying like you're not a day under 55, dude, I know it seems like you got everything figured out, but you don't. Tennessee will be fine. You would be better off focusing on partying while you still can. Being as old as you act like leaves far less time for debauchery than being in your 20s does.
 
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