Shorten the Bench?

#1

BACKDOC

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#1
The guys over at Volquest were saying that Barnes would probably shorten the bench going forward; but other than Mashack I can't see doing this. Seems like every time Awaka comes in good things happen. All of our bigs are playing much better this year; they all need to be more consistent. Not to mention, statistically ON is one of the best three point shooters on the team, and Key seems to be getting more confidence. Like ON,Key has a better 3pt. % than ZZ or Vescovi.
 
#2

CAVPUT

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#2
The guys over at Volquest were saying that Barnes would probably shorten the bench going forward; but other than Mashack I can't see doing this. Seems like every time Awaka comes in good things happen. All of our bigs are playing much better this year; they all need to be more consistent. Not to mention, statistically ON is one of the best three point shooters on the team, and Key seems to be getting more confidence. Like ON,Key has a better 3pt. % than ZZ or Vescovi.
If it happens...and I think when things get serious Barnes will go with experience.....I suspect you'll see Awaka and Mashack being limited barring illness, injury our foul trouble. I see an 8 man rotation going forward.
 
#3

BruisedOrange

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#3
"Shorten the bench" at midseason is SOP in coaching, but I agree: for this particular team, where's the benefit?

For all his inconsistency in all phases of the game, I'll bet ON will have at least one more game where his shooting proves the difference between a W and an L.

And I'd go a bit further: If Vescovi and Ziegler were unavailable for any combination of injury, illness, or fouls... it's hard to imagine us not having Mashack on the floor. I'd love to see him get more minutes now, adding more offensive production to his already solid defense. But I'm guessing we won't see his scoring ability on display until it's really needed in a game.
 
#4

BruisedOrange

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#4
If it happens...and I think when things get serious Barnes will go with experience.....I suspect you'll see Awaka and Mashack being limited barring illness, injury our foul trouble. I see an 8 man rotation going forward.
Maybe the Texas game will offer a clue to Barnes' approach for the balance of this season.

I'd sure feel better if Ziegler could play fewer minutes in more games before tournament time.
 
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#7

youcancallmeAl

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#7
I'd like to see a deep run in the ncaa tournament. I assume that would be more likely with fresher legs than not. If so, then I'd be in favor of 10 players getting significant minutes during the regular season. We have the players. I don't see a significant drop in team performance if we go ten deep.
 
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#8
I feel like something to remember is that we’ve only had a full squad for what, 4 or 5 games? So people have been playing that maybe at full strength they wouldn’t have, here’s current mpg averages:

Santi 31.6
Zeigler 29.1
Phillips 25.9
Key 25.6
Nkamhoua 25.2
James 22.0
Aidoo 17.7
Mashack 16.9
Plavsic 15.3
Awaka 8.2

I think Mashack & Awaka are the first 2 candidates to see minutes dropped, not accounting for blowouts so guys getting pulled early I expect something like:

Zeigler 36
Santi 30
James 30
Phillips 30
Key 25
Nkamhoua 25
Aidoo 17
Plavsic 7
 
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#9

bleedingTNorange

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#9
I'd like to see a deep run in the ncaa tournament. I assume that would be more likely with fresher legs than not. If so, then I'd be in favor of 10 players getting significant minutes during the regular season. We have the players. I don't see a significant drop in team performance if we go ten deep.
It’s actually quite the opposite, historical numbers say that playing 6.5-7.5 man rotation is what the best teams do.
 
#13

bleedingTNorange

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#13
I would think that as the season went on you would want to play more players to limit minutes and wear and tear from being deep into the season and to be fresh for tournament. But what do I know, Barnes is being paid to make those decisions and not me.
This is a very common misconception, these are typically 19-21 year olds who grew up playing 2-3 games in a day and 5-7 in a 3 day span. They’ll be required to play 2 games in 3 days in NCAAT, possibly 3-4 in a row in conference tournaments, playing 30mpg and getting 3-4 days rest is typically nothing for these guys. Are there occasional nagging injuries you want to manage if you can, sure, but you also want your best 7-8 guys getting as much run together as you can down the stretch.
 
#14

SN-A-C Orange

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#14
It’s actually quite the opposite, historical numbers say that playing 6.5-7.5 man rotation is what the best teams do.
I do not have historical numbers, but I would argue that coaches play their strongest players more, due to skill dropoff.
There is also the consideration of players meshing well becoming a limiting factor.
Uros is an example of a player with a good or poor mindset affecting his minutes. Plus there are some players he does not match up well with on the court. That becomes even more obvious against better teams. Your better players play more to hide the issues that less or limited skill players possess.
Furthermore, as younger players like Awaka have more tape their weaknesses become more exposed and known ...so their effectiveness on the floor becomes more limited..hence less minutes.
I agree rotations tend to shorten as the season goes deeper...But I disagree that it is simply coaches shortening the bench.
 
#15

bleedingTNorange

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#15
I do not have historical numbers, but I would argue that coaches play their strongest players more, due to skill dropoff.
There is also the consideration of players meshing well becoming a limiting factor.
Uros is an example of a player with a good or poor mindset affecting his minutes. Plus there are some players he does not match up well with on the court. That becomes even more obvious against better teams. Your better players play more to hide the issues that less or limited skill players possess.
Furthermore, as younger players like Awaka have more tape their weaknesses become more exposed and known ...so their effectiveness on the floor becomes more limited..hence less minutes.
I agree rotations tend to shorten as the season goes deeper...But I disagree that it is simply coaches shortening the bench.
Regardless of reasoning that’s exactly what you are saying coaches are doing, shortening their bench…that literally means less minutes for some guys than they’ve been getting, which is exactly what you say they do? I’m confused on how you can say both things?
 
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#16

SN-A-C Orange

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#16
Coaches want to play every player. But minutes of play are earned by demonstration of skills. The more and better the skills...the more minutes.
Examples: Phi Slamma Jamma did not have 10 players of equal talent AND neither does Rick B NOR will any coach ever!!!!
But they are trying to work on defensive sets, and experiment with rotations, with player combinations, player development.
They are also concerned with player psyche and trying to put them in a position to succeed...and bring them along....
John Wooden promised one off his bench players (a senior) that he would start him next game, because he was going to quit the game. (Forgetting that is was a crucial must win game.)
So, to honor his promise, he put him on the other teams best shooter...thinking after a minute or two ...he would be so embarrassed he would be begging to come out. The senior actually had a once in a lifetime performance,...so it worked out. Coaches play them hoping the light will come on over the course of time. Sometimes it does, coaches always hope it will. Think KC last year..he got better during the season.
But more coaches are like Mike K, they play them minutes to help them develop, but players tend to develop skills in the off season. The floor is to help them discover why their minutes are limited. Their play on film shows them why their minutes become less.
 
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#18

bleedingTNorange

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#18
Coaches want to play every player. But minutes of play are earned by demonstration of skills. The more and better the skills...the more minutes.
Examples: Phi Slamma Jamma did not have 10 players of equal talent AND neither does Rick B NOR will any coach ever!!!!
But they are trying to work on defensive sets, and experiment with rotations, with player combinations, player development.
They are also concerned with player psyche and trying to put them in a position to succeed...and bring them along....
John Wooden promised one off his bench players (a senior) that he would start him next game, because he was going to quit the game. (Forgetting that is was a crucial must win game.)
So, to honor his promise, he put him on the other teams best shooter...thinking after a minute or two ...he would be so embarrassed he would be begging to come out. The senior actually had a once in a lifetime performance,...so it worked out. Coaches play them hoping the light will come on over the course of time. Sometimes it does, coaches always hope it will. Think KC last year..he got better during the season.
But more coaches are like Mike K, they play them minutes to help them develop, but players tend to develop skills in the off season. The floor is to help them discover why their minutes are limited. Their play on film shows them why their minutes become less.
How much is tea currently costing in china?
 
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#20
This is a very common misconception, these are typically 19-21 year olds who grew up playing 2-3 games in a day and 5-7 in a 3 day span. They’ll be required to play 2 games in 3 days in NCAAT, possibly 3-4 in a row in conference tournaments, playing 30mpg and getting 3-4 days rest is typically nothing for these guys. Are there occasional nagging injuries you want to manage if you can, sure, but you also want your best 7-8 guys getting as much run together as you can down the stretch.
Interesting point, I just went and watched a Sectional boys bball game 6-8th graders. The losing team played 7 players the whole game and lost because they got tired and missed foul shots at the end of the game that they made in the first half of play. The winning team played 10 players and won because they were able to make the play's down the stretch. I realize this is 8th grade BBall and not college where the players are in much better shape but it was apparent that the losing team was "Holding their knees" at the end and the other team was not.
 
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Interesting point, I just went and watched a Sectional boys bball game 6-8th graders. The losing team played 7 players the whole game and lost because they got tired and missed foul shots at the end of the game that they made in the first half of play. The winning team played 10 players and won because they were able to make the play's down the stretch. I realize this is 8th grade BBall and not college where the players are in much better shape but it was apparent that the losing team was "Holding their knees" at the end and the other team was not.
You’re also using anecdotal evidence which can be problematic when looking at bigger picture
 
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#22

bleedingTNorange

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#22
Interesting point, I just went and watched a Sectional boys bball game 6-8th graders. The losing team played 7 players the whole game and lost because they got tired and missed foul shots at the end of the game that they made in the first half of play. The winning team played 10 players and won because they were able to make the play's down the stretch. I realize this is 8th grade BBall and not college where the players are in much better shape but it was apparent that the losing team was "Holding their knees" at the end and the other team was not.
Yea, I think you more than answered your question there…8th graders playing video games and eating twinkies on the daily vs. world class athletes.
 
#23

SN-A-C Orange

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#23
How much is tea currently costing in china?
Would not have the least idea ... I work in Configuration Management.
I have never been able to have a one on one with Rick. So, next time you have a sit down with Rick Barnes, be sure to ask him if he is intentionally shortening the bench and trying to play his players more than 30 min per game.
Then, if you wouldn't mind, get back to us on what he had to say ... I will be curious to hear his thoughts.
 
#24

bleedingTNorange

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#24
Would not have the least idea ... I work in Configuration Management.
I have never been able to have a one on one with Rick. So, next time you have a sit down with Rick Barnes, be sure to ask him if he is intentionally shortening the bench and trying to play his players more than 30 min per game.
Then, if you wouldn't mind, get back to us on what he had to say ... I will be curious to hear his thoughts.
By making a switch to small ball and telling his staff he’s going to play some other guys less that seems pretty intentional to me, not sure how much more intentional it could be really.
 
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